Var debate 2019/20

Copper said:
I have seen City win penalties in a similar fashion to how Mane won our penalties against Leicester and Spurs. When? Can you provide any from this season or last? The closest I can remember this season to a Mane dive would have been Mahrez against Wolves when his foot was stood on. This was exactly the same as one on Silva that wasn't given against Bournemouth earlier in the season, the VAR guy confirmed it was one of the mistakes with VAR at the start of the season and should have been given as a penalty

People are absolutely up in arms about Robertson's tackle, but Sterling's cheeky stamp on VVD has been completely forgotten about. I have no idea what this is about, have you got a link to a vid anywhere? There was so much violent conduct in that game that I still can't believe you weren't down to 9 men after about 20 minutes so this 'cheeky stamp' may have been missed by many.

I also feel that the vast majority of the decisions that people are getting angry about come across as clutching at straws. Like saying Henderson handballed it against Spurs when really, it was near enough impossible to tell in any of the replays, or like constantly referring to the fact VVD may have handled it in the build up to our goal against Wolves (I think it was Wolves?) when, again, it was very difficult to conclude that he had actually handled it, and on top of that, it was explained that even if he did accidentally handle it, according to the rules, it still would have stood, due to it not being handled by the scorer or the creator. These decisions were similar to the goal we had chalked off against Spurs at the start of the season, we were told by the head of PGMOL that if the ball touches a player's hand in the build up to a goal then the goal is disallowed (much like the West Ham goal recently), did Henderson handle it and then the next player to touch the ball score? I have no idea as I haven't seen the goal for myself, is this the difference between these goals and everyone else's that have been chalked off? I feel like a lot of our "dodgy" decisions have actually been explained perfectly clearly to be correct decisions, The head of PGMOL/VAR said that all the decisions in the game between our two teams were VAR checked and they were all given correctly, do you agree with that? Do you think that the handball that gained you control of the ball and led to your first goal should was the right decision according to the laws of the game? Do you think that Mane pushing Sterling in the back in the penalty area with no penalty given was the right decision according to the laws of the game? Does this maybe make you think that sometimes the explanations given of why a decision is correct varies from week to week or from team to team?

or that opposition goalkeepers are all in on this big, elaborate conspiracy to ensure Liverpool win the League, then it starts to really get mind-bogglingly surreal to read and approaches flat-earther territory. I agree with this, this is crazy talk.
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For me I think that the way that VAR has been set up in this country rewards cheating, if you want to get a decision now from the referee or VAR a player has to throw themselves over and roll around a bit. VAR isn't used to see if an incident is a foul or not they just seem to look to see if there was 'contact' or not and go off that. Unfortunately for the rest of the league no team over the last 6 or 7 years has cheated as consistently and successfully as Liverpool. If it's not Salah, Mane, Firmino, Henderson, Milner, etc diving for pens and freekicks it's Alexander-Arnold, Robertson, Henderson, Milner, etc with their pulling, holding, sly kicks and racking their studs down the back of players ankles on an incredibly regular basis, your team cheats like no other before them in the history of the English game. I think this tendency to cheat is perfect for the way that VAR is set up and has won your team more points than you have deserved this year.

It's not just because of the marginal decisions that go your way on a much more regular basis than they do anyone else in the league it's also the fact that you don't have to worry about your players getting cards and they therefore don't serve any suspensions. If you can explain why Robertson hasn't already served at least one ban simply for accumulating yellows I'd love to hear it. The man is an utter coward and a disgrace to the game, his favourite pastime of pushing opposition players into advertising hoardings is just plain despicable. How many of your other players have been or are close to suspension from getting five yellows? I've no idea but I do know that if they played for 18 of the other teams in the league most of them would be, particularly Van Dyke, Alexander-Arnold and Henderson. In our games against Utd I would have been utterly mortified if our players had behaved the way yours did in your game against Everton, that overtook the infamous Arsenal v Utd game as the most bent game I'd ever seen in this country and how none of your players got away without a ban absolutely baffles me.

The advantage you have that most other teams dont is that the press is full of your ex players and supporters who either explain away your team's transgressions or make a big deal of any marginal decision that goes against you. This then makes the cowards that referee the game too scared to give a decision against you and generally give any marginal decision your way in games as they don't want to be attacked by your cheerleaders in the press. These poor decisions are then 'explained' to be correct by idiots who's job it is to make it look like VAR is great and working perfectly. We're talking about two teams that were separated by a point the season before and so marginal decisions going one way the majority of the time can and will make a big difference to not only points gained but to the form and morale of the players in each team. This is especially true when the people in charge of the laws of the game explain away wrong decisions against one team as being definitively correct, for example when Rodri was hauled to the ground by his neck or when a ball is blatantly handled by an opposition defender in their own box. This can be a little dispiriting for not only the players but the fans too, especially when their main opponents that season are given points from blatant dives and are seemingly allowed to handle the ball, pull opposition players and just generally get away with being snidey thugs with a large measure of impunity.

I don't particularly think there's a big conspiracy to win the league for you (although I'm sure it will help the Premier Leagues strategic plan of getting a new name on the trophy every few years and will certainly help with 'growing the brand' in Ireland, Scandinavia and the Far East). I just think it's a combination of a new system that rewards cheating, a very good team who happened to have mastered the art of cheating, a compliant press corps and a body of referees who are either unwilling or unable to govern your games in a fair and even handed way (the only Premier League game of yours I've seen where you were playing to the same rules as your opposition was against Utd, I'm not saying it was a good refereeing performance but he at least made both teams play to the same laws) that makes it look like a conspiracy.
 
danielwood5 said:
For me I think that the way that VAR has been set up in this country rewards cheating, if you want to get a decision now from the referee or VAR a player has to throw themselves over and roll around a bit. VAR isn't used to see if an incident is a foul or not they just seem to look to see if there was 'contact' or not and go off that. Unfortunately for the rest of the league no team over the last 6 or 7 years has cheated as consistently and successfully as Liverpool. If it's not Salah, Mane, Firmino, Henderson, Milner, etc diving for pens and freekicks it's Alexander-Arnold, Robertson, Henderson, Milner, etc with their pulling, holding, sly kicks and racking their studs down the back of players ankles on an incredibly regular basis, your team cheats like no other before them in the history of the English game. I think this tendency to cheat is perfect for the way that VAR is set up and has won your team more points than you have deserved this year.

It's not just because of the marginal decisions that go your way on a much more regular basis than they do anyone else in the league it's also the fact that you don't have to worry about your players getting cards and they therefore don't serve any suspensions. If you can explain why Robertson hasn't already served at least one ban simply for accumulating yellows I'd love to hear it. The man is an utter coward and a disgrace to the game, his favourite pastime of pushing opposition players into advertising hoardings is just plain despicable. How many of your other players have been or are close to suspension from getting five yellows? I've no idea but I do know that if they played for 18 of the other teams in the league most of them would be, particularly Van Dyke, Alexander-Arnold and Henderson. In our games against Utd I would have been utterly mortified if our players had behaved the way yours did in your game against Everton, that overtook the infamous Arsenal v Utd game as the most bent game I'd ever seen in this country and how none of your players got away without a ban absolutely baffles me.

The advantage you have that most other teams dont is that the press is full of your ex players and supporters who either explain away your team's transgressions or make a big deal of any marginal decision that goes against you. This then makes the cowards that referee the game too scared to give a decision against you and generally give any marginal decision your way in games as they don't want to be attacked by your cheerleaders in the press. These poor decisions are then 'explained' to be correct by idiots who's job it is to make it look like VAR is great and working perfectly. We're talking about two teams that were separated by a point the season before and so marginal decisions going one way the majority of the time can and will make a big difference to not only points gained but to the form and morale of the players in each team. This is especially true when the people in charge of the laws of the game explain away wrong decisions against one team as being definitively correct, for example when Rodri was hauled to the ground by his neck or when a ball is blatantly handled by an opposition defender in their own box. This can be a little dispiriting for not only the players but the fans too, especially when their main opponents that season are given points from blatant dives and are seemingly allowed to handle the ball, pull opposition players and just generally get away with being snidey thugs with a large measure of impunity.

I don't particularly think there's a big conspiracy to win the league for you (although I'm sure it will help the Premier Leagues strategic plan of getting a new name on the trophy every few years and will certainly help with 'growing the brand' in Ireland, Scandinavia and the Far East). I just think it's a combination of a new system that rewards cheating, a very good team who happened to have mastered the art of cheating, a compliant press corps and a body of referees who are either unwilling or unable to govern your games in a fair and even handed way (the only Premier League game of yours I've seen where you were playing to the same rules as your opposition was against Utd, I'm not saying it was a good refereeing performance but he at least made both teams play to the same laws) that makes it look like a conspiracy.
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100% completely agree
 
ballinio said:
Without the victories they’ve been handed there is no consistency
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I mean... this is just blatantly false?

Last season we got 97 points without VAR. That’s consistent, no?

The “VAR table” also shows that we would still be top this season without VAR, so you’re talking nonsense, I’m afraid.
 
Copper said:
I mean... this is just blatantly false?

Last season we got 97 points without VAR. That’s consistent, no?

The “VAR table” also shows that we would still be top this season without VAR, so you’re talking nonsense, I’m afraid.
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The var table doesn’t include what is not given to the other team , this is where the cheating lies , you’re a functional team given help when needed whatever you’re serving media whores may say .
 
ballinio said:
The var table doesn’t include what is not given to the other team , this is where the cheating lies , you’re a functional team given help when needed whatever you’re serving media whores may say .
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You still haven’t explained how we were consistent last season?

I’m sorry, but it just seems incredibly desperate at this point. I’ve tried to be open and objective in my posts, but it’s becoming clear that some of you won’t even take in anything that’s being said, which is unfortunate.

My fiancé’s uncle is a staunch City fan. He’s around 60 years old now, and I’ve managed to have many sensible discussions with him about City and Liverpool over the past 4 years. Over the Christmas holidays, he was as magnanimous as you could possibly be and admitted that Liverpool are just too good this season and jokingly said City will take the crown back next season, so he’s not bothered. I’ve asked him about all this conspiracy/cheating stuff and he just laughed it off and said that’s what happens when you’re winning and that it is a load of nonsense.
 
Announcement to all readers/posters of this thread.

A new, different Liverpool fan will be along at 9pm tonight. This will be our 7th in as many days so, if your sock drawer needs tidying...…..
 
Copper said:
You still haven’t explained how we were consistent last season?

I’m sorry, but it just seems incredibly desperate at this point. I’ve tried to be open and objective in my posts, but it’s becoming clear that some of you won’t even take in anything that’s being said, which is unfortunate.

My fiancé’s uncle is a staunch City fan. He’s around 60 years old now, and I’ve managed to have many sensible discussions with him about City and Liverpool over the past 4 years. Over the Christmas holidays, he was as magnanimous as you could possibly be and admitted that Liverpool are just too good this season and jokingly said City will take the crown back next season, so he’s not bothered. I’ve asked him about all this conspiracy/cheating stuff and he just laughed it off and said that’s what happens when you’re winning and that it is a load of nonsense.
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If you cannot see the difference the media treats both clubs along with the difference in the two teams being refereed then there isn’t much hope. It isn’t why Liverpool are going to win it, they’ve been the best. Acknowledging the media treat you miles differently to city along with having more favourable var decisions (usually when you’re struggling) and maybe people could debate with you. If you can’t recognise that then it’s pointless
 
Copper said:
I am a Liverpool fan, so I am expecting to be called biased, but when I try to look at it as objectively as I can, I can't help but feel that the the focus is very much on the VAR decisions that have gone Liverpool's way, but there is no mention of the ones that went against us? This paints a picture that VAR is helping us massively, but the reality is that we've had our fair share of VAR decisions that could have gone our way but didn't, just like everyone else? Off the top of my head, here is a few examples:

Origi possibly fouled in the build up to Rashford's goal at Old Trafford
Mane goal ruled out for handball at Old Trafford
Firmino armpit offside goal against Villa
Sterling stamp on VVD at Anfield
Mane hip offside goal against Watford
Matip fouled during a corner against Newcastle
Brighton quick free-kick goal at Anfield
Salah put in a headlock in the box against Aston Villa

I am not saying any of the above events were correct or incorrect, I am simply listing a number of events that could have gone our way, but did not. They seem to get swept under the carpet when it comes to discussing Liverpool and VAR.
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Sterlings stamp?
 
Whymewhynot said:
If you cannot see the difference the media treats both clubs along with the difference in the two teams being refereed then there isn’t much hope. It isn’t why Liverpool are going to win it, they’ve been the best. Acknowledging the media treat you miles differently to city along with having more favourable var decisions (usually when you’re struggling) and maybe people could debate with you. If you can’t recognise that then it’s pointless
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I don’t really pay too much attention to the media, so I can’t really comment on that, but what I can say is that your theory that Liverpool and City are treated differently by the referees/VAR is completely incorrect. I have already listed a vast number of decisions that didn’t go our way, but as usual, they’ve been swept under the carpet because they don’t fit the narrative.
 
Copper said:
You're missing the point. I stated in the post that I wasn't saying any of them were correct or incorrect. They're just examples of where VAR could have favoured us, but didn't, which in my opinion, kind of disproves that there's some kind of conspiracy to ensure everything goes our way.

For example, a lot of people are saying Henderson handled the ball for our goal against Spurs, and that the fact it was given shows that it is rigged, or whatever you want to call it, but if that's the case, why was Mane's one disallowed? You get me? And Mane's one was in a game we were losing 1-0, so if there was ever a time to give us a dodgy decision, surely that would be it?!

FYI, for the Dunk incident, the issue was that a Brighton player was too close to our wall, which is against the rules this season. That goal, according to the rules, should have not stood. This would have been such an easy one to rule in our favour, because it was actually breaking the rules, but it was allowed to stand and we played the final 15 minutes of the game with a precarious 2-1 scoreline, which, surely if there was an agenda, wouldn't have been allowed?
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Meanwhile you are handballing every game,pushing players at every corner,into hoardings just because you can and doing some really bad tackling and getting very few cards,not having pens go against you,scoring offside goals without being varred
You went 4mths before getting a decision against you
You lot really get on my wick
 
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Copper said:
You still haven’t explained how we were consistent last season?

I’m sorry, but it just seems incredibly desperate at this point. I’ve tried to be open and objective in my posts, but it’s becoming clear that some of you won’t even take in anything that’s being said, which is unfortunate.

My fiancé’s uncle is a staunch City fan. He’s around 60 years old now, and I’ve managed to have many sensible discussions with him about City and Liverpool over the past 4 years. Over the Christmas holidays, he was as magnanimous as you could possibly be and admitted that Liverpool are just too good this season and jokingly said City will take the crown back next season, so he’s not bothered. I’ve asked him about all this conspiracy/cheating stuff and he just laughed it off and said that’s what happens when you’re winning and that it is a load of nonsense.
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cool story bro
 
Copper said:
Personally, I feel that if you look hard enough, or spend enough time focusing on the little things one team is getting away with, it is easy to go blind to the fact that it happens to everyone, more or less. Not just Liverpool.

I have seen City win penalties in a similar fashion to how Mane won our penalties against Leicester and Spurs, but they're quickly forgotten, whilst Mane's "engineered dives" against Leicester and Spurs are still talked about and scrutinised months later, for example. People are absolutely up in arms about Robertson's tackle, but Sterling's cheeky stamp on VVD has been completely forgotten about (someone even said to me earlier on here that they don't remember it, which says it all). If you put all your focus and energy into trying to spot the things we have "gotten away with", then of course it will seem like we are getting away with more than the other teams who you turn a blind eye to when the same things happen for them.

I also feel that the vast majority of the decisions that people are getting angry about come across as clutching at straws. Like saying Henderson handballed it against Spurs when really, it was near enough impossible to tell in any of the replays, or like constantly referring to the fact VVD may have handled it in the build up to our goal against Wolves (I think it was Wolves?) when, again, it was very difficult to conclude that he had actually handled it, and on top of that, it was explained that even if he did accidentally handle it, according to the rules, it still would have stood, due to it not being handled by the scorer or the creator. I feel like a lot of our "dodgy" decisions have actually been explained perfectly clearly to be correct decisions, but many people refuse to accept this and instead, it is all a part of some big, elaborate conspiracy, which does not make any sense at all, when you look at the number of things that have actually gone against us, as I mentioned before.

Edit: When it goes even further than that, and people start saying things like Liverpool will get decisions against them now to give the appearance of things evening up, or that opposition goalkeepers are all in on this big, elaborate conspiracy to ensure Liverpool win the League, then it starts to really get mind-bogglingly surreal to read and approaches flat-earther territory.

Edit 2: But that's football fandom, for you. I distinctly remember being the same about Fergie's United teams and Howard Webb!

Edit 3: It happens every season, for the leaders/winners, although the reasons/narrative varies.

Liverpool this season? VAR
City winning the last 2 PLs? Oil money
Chelsea winning the League in 2016/17? Nothing without Costa's cheating
Leciester winning it in 2015/16? Everyone else was bad

There's always something, you can't get away from it. Rival fans will always blame a rival's dominance/trophy win on something other than the fact that actually, they are quite good.
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Took you a while to get to oil money,well done
 
karen7 said:
Last season you got loads of offsides given,even your last goal was and numerous pens for diving
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If I remember rightly their last goal of the season last year was the goal that gave Mane a share of the golden boot, and I have to say that I don't remember it as being one of their offside ones. I'm pretty certain it came from a freekick that was awarded for a dive by the Brazilian in midfield (can't remember his name for the life of me, the one that's a bit of a thug and likes a good dive but isn't 'Bobby').
 
danielwood5 said:
If I remember rightly their last goal of the season last year was the goal that gave Mane a share of the golden boot, and I have to say that I don't remember it as being one of their offside ones. I'm pretty certain it came from a freekick that was awarded for a dive by the Brazilian in midfield (can't remember his name for the life of me, the one that's a bit of a thug and likes a good dive but isn't 'Bobby').
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Fabinho?
 
danielwood5 said:
If I remember rightly their last goal of the season last year was the goal that gave Mane a share of the golden boot, and I have to say that I don't remember it as being one of their offside ones. I'm pretty certain it came from a freekick that was awarded for a dive by the Brazilian in midfield (can't remember his name for the life of me, the one that's a bit of a thug and likes a good dive but isn't 'Bobby').
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Not sure,i was at brighton so i watched it on MOTD,they said clearly offside,they went into double figures for offsides,i'm bias so i get confirmation from the pundits,mcpointy and tyler aside,they got the points v the geordies for a belly flop right in front of the linesman near the box that was given,salad dived all season,mane this,they are like a maureen team,win at all costs,cheating no problem,rotating nasty tackles to avoid cards,general thuggery aided by the refs
 
karen7 said:
Not sure,i was at brighton so i watched it on MOTD,they said clearly offside,they went into double figures for offsides,i'm bias so i get confirmation from the pundits,mcpointy and tyler aside,they got the points v the geordies for a belly flop right in front of the linesman near the box that was given,salad dived all season,mane,they are like a maureen team,win at all costs,cheating no problem
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That was the one I remember, as blatant a dive as you'll see right in front of the lino against the Geordies.
 
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