VAR Discussion Thread - 2023/24 | PL clubs to vote on whether to scrap VAR (pg413)

[Stephen230]

One of the biggest contradictions for referees (and I've experienced the same whilst cricket umpiring in recent years) is that people scream for both consistency and common sense, when in reality, they're mutually exclusive.
Last night Taylor waved "play-on" after a blatant shirt pull by Joelinton, and there was a natural assumption that he'd give a yellow card at the next stoppage.
Similarly, United's Dalot was given a second yellow card for dissent at Anfield when we've all seen referees ignore similar offences.
City got a penalty at Old Trafford for the first time in PL history, but didn't get one at Arsenal for a far more blatant shirt-pull just a few weeks previously.
How many times have we seen a City player get a yellow card at the ETIHAD when the referee has just tolerated 5-6 previous "soft" fouls by cynical opponents?
Two foul throws at Luton v City, but similar offences ignored at virtually every fixture.

Instead of resolving this inconsistency VAR has actually magnified the issue.

You’re bang on with that. It’s something I’ve often thought. Managers and pundits constantly calling for ‘consistency’ AND ‘common sense’ are simultaneously calling for two polar opposites.

It goes back way before VAR days aswell. How many times have you heard a manager slagging off a referee for dishing out a few cards when “there wasn’t a bad foul in the whole game” The following week he’s blaming him for not giving out a second yellow to an opposition player because ‘rules are rules’ and then when he does get round to booking someone, it’s back to the old ‘common sense’

Nothing much has changed in that regard. Other than these days, there’s a million people sat at computers ready to instantly produce two similar images, often weeks or even months apart, demanding to know why they were adjudicated differently.

I do happen to know that the Dalot sending off wasn’t viewed particularly favourably. Whilst it wasn’t strictly speaking a mistake or a wrong decision, the feeling was that Oliver was far too hasty with the second yellow. And they’d expect an incident like that in future to be dealt with differently, rather than it to set a benchmark.

 

[BlueHammer85]

All 3 decisions were given by the ref though, so would have stood if VAR didn't exist

Yeh but that’s fine, no one minded farcical decisions being given apparently, all was fine, we all just laughed and accepted Salah and Kane diving with no contact being awarded penalties , Man Utd getting away with pretty much everything and consequently winning far more trophies. No one even celebrates goals anymore, watch when a goal is scored , the fans just stand there in silence.

 

[Bill the Blue]

Yeah, I don’t think you’ve read my posts suggesting that all the decisions that you mentioned were all wrong.

If you think that’s banging a drum, all power to you.

If you want to rant about conspiracy theories, go for it. Loads will join in and love it.

Who's ranting ?

Conspiracy theories you say ?

I've been watching football for over 50 years and like to think that I've got a bit of an understanding of how things work..

Football is such a simple game that unfortunately has been ruined by the powers that be..

VAR was sold as the savior of football, no more Alf Grey moments, no more Spurs having goals not given at the swamp when the ball was 3 foot over the line and so on and so on..

Tell me, if VAR is as good as it says on the tin why can..

Nobody explain what a handball offence is..?

Nobody explain what subjective means..?

Nobody explain why the 2 biggest clubs in England can get away with not having large screens installed in their stadia..?

Nobody explain why there is no transparency in a multi £billion pound sport..?

Nobody explain why Anfield appears to have sections of their field of play that are not covered by VAR cameras..?

Nobody explain why faceless individuals can be given the power to decide if a goal is to be allowed or not and then not having to face up and explain their decisions after the game has ended..?

VAR does itself absolutely no favours whatsoever and until it is laid bare and subjected to scrutiny, transparency and openness, it will remain tainted to say the least..

 

[Andy TheCatalyst Morrison]

You’re bang on with that. It’s something I’ve often thought. Managers and pundits constantly calling for ‘consistency’ AND ‘common sense’ are simultaneously calling for two polar opposites.

It goes back way before VAR days aswell. How many times have you heard a manager slagging off a referee for dishing out a few cards when “there wasn’t a bad foul in the whole game” The following week he’s blaming him for not giving out a second yellow to an opposition player because ‘rules are rules’ and then when he does get round to booking someone, it’s back to the old ‘common sense’

Nothing much has changed in that regard. Other than these days, there’s a million people sat at computers ready to instantly produce two similar images, often weeks or even months apart, demanding to know why they were adjudicated differently.

I do happen to know that the Dalot sending off wasn’t viewed particularly favourably. Whilst it wasn’t strictly speaking a mistake or a wrong decision, the feeling was that Oliver was far too hasty with the second yellow. And they’d expect an incident like that in future to be dealt with differently, rather than it to set a benchmark.

Why are consistency and common sense polar opposites? You can consistently apply common sense.

 

[Bill the Blue]

All 3 decisions were given by the ref though, so would have stood if VAR didn't exist

Isn't the whole point of VAR to correct the mistakes the refs make to improve the game and get to the right decisions ?

VAR gave all 3 decisions too so saying the refs gave them is irrelevant as VAR didn't change any of them.

In all 3 instances VAR failed..

Therefore what's the point of VAR ..

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Who's ranting ?

Conspiracy theories you say ?

I've been watching football for over 50 years and like to think that I've got a bit of an understanding of how things work..

Football is such a simple game that unfortunately has been ruined by the powers that be..

VAR was sold as the savior of football, no more Alf Grey moments, no more Spurs having goals not given at the swamp when the ball was 3 foot over the line and so on and so on..

Tell me, if VAR is as good as it says on the tin why can..

Nobody explain what a handball offence is..?

Nobody explain what subjective means..?

Nobody explain why the 2 biggest clubs in England can get away with not having large screens installed in their stadia..?

Nobody explain why there is no transparency in a multi £billion pound sport..?

Nobody explain why Anfield appears to have sections of their field of play that are not covered by VAR cameras..?

Nobody explain why faceless individuals can be given the power to decide if a goal is to be allowed or not and then not having to face up and explain their decisions after the game has ended..?

VAR does itself absolutely no favours whatsoever and until it is laid bare and subjected to scrutiny, transparency and openness, it will remain tainted to say the least..

It’s the 50 camera angles that can see every incident (barring the ball going out near Arsenal’s goal) that is causing the problems along with everybody now having an instant opinion online coupled with Whataboutery.

Refereeing is in an existential crisis where VAR can’t rereferee, unless x,y or z happens. Webb needs binning and the approach changing.

 

[Stephen230]

Why are consistency and common sense polar opposites? You can consistently apply common sense.

Because what a manager inevitably actually means by ‘common sense’ is for a referee to ignore the laws of the game in certain circumstances that benefit his side.

 

[Andy TheCatalyst Morrison]

Because what a manager inevitably actually means by ‘common sense’ is for a referee to ignore the laws of the game in certain circumstances that benefit his side.

That doesn’t make common sense and consistency incompatible. In fact, what you’re basically saying is that managers don’t want consistency either, they want all decisions in their favour.

I just think that saying that consistency and common sense are polar opposites is something that sounds clever but doesn’t actually stand up to scrutiny

 

[the-ecstacy-of-eight]

All 3 decisions were given by the ref though, so would have stood if VAR didn't exist

Which in itself tells you everything you need to know about the on-field referee's (flawed at best) decision-making and illustrates where VARs clear and obvious thresholds for making the "correct decision" fall apart.

If the ref gives it, VAR tends not to over-rule, and, as we all know, there's "unintentional" bias at play in these decision-making processes.

VAR was the opportunity to rid football of this "unintentional" bias, but answer me this, do you think it has? or do you still see a pattern that some teams get more of a rub of the green than others?

The on-field ref made questionable decisions before VAR and those decisions stood.
The on-field ref makes questionable decisions with VAR and those decisions still stand.

 

[Blue Mist]

What is this svar nonsense in our cup game, apparently the var now needs an assistant, for the life of me i cant understand why it needs two useless dickheads to make an incorrect decision, one seemed to be doing fine

@mancboy everybody is too busy argueing with the resident wum to answer. I was going to ask the same question after reading about it earlier. Reading about it but not having a clue what the job entails. Apparently Taylor is the SVAR. As if there isn't enough shite to spoil our enjoyment.

Edit. The SVAR is there to assist the Var and the assistant Var. No seriously I'm not making it up. The two useless tossers will now be joined in FA Cup matches by another useless tosser. As Morrissey once said 'this joke isn't funny anymore'

 

[Pingu the Penguin]

All 3 decisions were given by the ref though, so would have stood if VAR didn't exist

This argument gets used like it’s some kind of killer point. It really isn’t. You can accept human error from a human. In a video and tech aided system they should be corrected. Otherwise the trade off for tech (loss of spontaneous goal celebrating, time delays) is not a reasonable trade off

 

[danielwood5]

Yeh but that’s fine, no one minded farcical decisions being given apparently, all was fine, we all just laughed and accepted Salah and Kane diving with no contact being awarded penalties , Man Utd getting away with pretty much everything and consequently winning far more trophies. No one even celebrates goals anymore, watch when a goal is scored , the fans just stand there in silence.

Sarcastic and condescending comments like this don't help your case when people are calling you a WUM.

 

[Pingu the Penguin]

Sarcastic and condescending comments like this don't help your case when people are calling you a WUM.

He’s an odd poster for sure. Painted himself too far into a corner probably, more than an out and out WUM.

When pressed accepts there are serious problems with VAR but seemingly happy for it to continue as football is much better these days than in the 150 or so years pre VAR.

The reference to Salah in that post tho does have all the hallmarks of wumming tho given last night so who knows

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

VAR is here to stay. People forget what it was like pre VAR. Every week there would be a catalogue of errors and calls for video. If we go back it will be just the same.

The problems now are the time it takes and the small number of errors. The time factor is the consequence of fans wanting the right decisions which they invariably do.

And there will always be errors as its all subjective to some extent.

I remember refs getting things wrong, everyone saying how bent the ref was, how he was shit over the weekend but that was it really.

Nowadays its a whole investigation, a Sky sports TV program dedicated to it, apologies from pgmol, threats of clubs taking pgmol to court, endless endless analysis of every incident, every tiny detail. Thats all because of VAR. I am not even including the effect it has had on refs who are now more keen to let VAR handle it, the confusion all of that has caused to the game - Who makes a decision was never an issue before VAR. So many many negative aspects it has brought so it can get a few more decisions correct.

Its obviously an important tool that should be integral to the game which is why I think it should be rolled back and rethought, and certainly not PGMOL in charge of it. (Or whoever it is). But its a tool, it isnt the ref.

 

[city2]

Probably been asked before so why does Rugby have hardly any issues with Var , then is introduced into the premier league and all hell is let lose, all clubs have been fucked over some more than others, and also some teams getting favourable decisions.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Yeh but that’s fine, no one minded farcical decisions being given apparently, all was fine, we all just laughed and accepted Salah and Kane diving with no contact being awarded penalties , Man Utd getting away with pretty much everything and consequently winning far more trophies. No one even celebrates goals anymore, watch when a goal is scored , the fans just stand there in silence.

Once again, people ranted about the on-field decisions because fans will always rant about decisions that go against their team whether they are right or wrong. That's not a valid argument for having VAR. At least, back then people had sympathy for an almost impossible job even if they were ranting. Now they don't because the technology is supposedly there.

Your diving argument just got blown away, unfortunately.

And United are still getting away with as much as they did, they just happen to be crap now.

I can't think of any good reason for VAR as it is currently implemented tbh.

 

[mancboy]

Probably been asked before so why does Rugby have hardly any issues with Var , then is introduced into the premier league and all hell is let lose, all clubs have been fucked over some more than others, and also some teams getting favourable decisions.

quite simply because the conversations in rugby are available for everyone to hear and therefore it builds a trust that there isnt any shenanigans going on, as a previous poster has said until var is laid bare and decisions explained in real time then everyone is going to be suspicious and until there is a level of consistency in explanations then people will think its bent.

Anthony taylor and simon hooper are both grown men who are paid a very good wage to do a job, they have both made appalling decisions which have changed outcomes of games and instead of explaining why they have made those decisions and dealing with the consequences of them, they hide behind webb who issues pointless apologies like they're dad protecting them and that is why it will never change because of lack of consequence.

 

[Gazza]

Like.

I think most linesmen do a brilliant job, but it really is IMPOSSIBLE for them to see two things, involving at least 3 players, at the same time, especially when all 3 of them might well be moving at speed, sometimes in opposite directions…all while they themselves are on the move!

That said, it REALLY pisses me off when they do finally out the flag up but don’t move back up the field where the event occurred! Sometimes, the free kick for the offside is 20-30 yards behind where it actually occurred!

Now they're mic'd up why doesn't the linesman just concentrate on the forward's position and an official with an overall view of the game say 'now' when the player passing has kicked the ball?

 

[Phil1]

The one thing we can all agree on is there’s no longer arguments about decisions wrongly being made. All of that has been cleared up as 262 pages with only 19 games played so far testifies.
A stunning success..

 

[Stephen230]

Now they're mic'd up why doesn't the linesman just concentrate on the forward's position and an official with an overall view of the game say 'now' when the player passing has kicked the ball?