VAR Discussion Thread - 2023/24 | PL clubs to vote on whether to scrap VAR (pg413)

[domalino]

That just moves the point of debate a little further up the pitch. Now they draw lines to see if you’re a mm offside. They’ll still draw lines to see if there was clear daylight. People will argue over whether there was daylight at the point of the pass or whether the attackers leg was just in line with the defenders leg etc, which frame was used etc etc. all the same issues and interpretations, just a yard or so further up the pitch.

Exactly. Same lines but with the advantage to the attacker.

Yes, it is moving the point where offside is called and that’s why it’s potentially a good idea. It’s the speeding principle.

No one gets pinged for doing 31 in a 30, there’s normally like a 10% margin so you get pinged for doing 34 but not 33 in a 30.

The difference between nothing and a fine plus 3 points is still 1mph, but because we’ve allowed for a margin of forgiveness, no one has an excuse and people accept it.

I don’t actually love Wengers idea because the benefit is too big, but add a 10cm margin to automated offsides and attackers aren’t getting a huge advantage so the spirit of the offside rule and why it was brought in is retained, but we don’t have people getting ruled out by margins that piss people off. A goal being ruled out for being 0.1cm off is absurd, 10.1 cm off and it’s fair enough.

 

[halfcenturyup]

The semi-automated technology which is supposed to be coming in next season works far better. It takes seconds to come to a decision. If they could implement that next season that should see the end of the drawing lines on the pitch nonsense.

Only if you are on the "offside is a matter of fact", "the technology is good enough", "of course he is offside, his knee is in front of the last defender's heel" group of fans.

Personally, I don't like this obsession for accuracy for several reasons: firstly, it's an accuracy that no human can judge, so what's the point? And how many beautiful and important goals have been ruled out for super-marginal offside?; secondly, it is destroying the art of playing on/offside by players who really can't control movements to the degree to which they are being judged; thirdly, it goes against the original idea of gaining an advantage - there is no advantage gained by being where you are in a running movement; fourthly, the technology isn't accurate enough even, imho, with SAOT; fifthly, the offside laws and interpretations have been bastardised to the point hardly anyone can understand them, all for VAR.

Use VAR for offsides if you have to, but just for clear and obvious offside errors. Go with the on-field decisions unless it is literally feet (distance not body part) offside. The only one I can think of this season was the Spurs/Liverpool offside and I am not even sure about that one. No linesman is looking at a defender's feet.

All imho, of course, and I am sure there are more if you give me a minute.

 

[marco]

Bin it, its sucked the excitement from the game, keep goal line tech and i'l support any other form of improvements that are 100% human input free, keep the pitchside monitor incase the ref is not 100% sure

 

[halfcenturyup]

Yes, it is moving the point where offside is called and that’s why it’s potentially a good idea. It’s the speeding principle.

No one gets pinged for doing 31 in a 30, there’s normally like a 10% margin so you get pinged for doing 34 but not 33 in a 30.

The difference between nothing and a fine plus 3 points is still 1mph, but because we’ve allowed for a margin of forgiveness, no one has an excuse and people accept it.

I don’t actually love Wengers idea because the benefit is too big, but add a 10cm margin to automated offsides and attackers aren’t getting a huge advantage so the spirit of the offside rule and why it was brought in is retained, but we don’t have people getting ruled out by margins that piss people off. A goal being ruled out for being 0.1cm off is absurd, 10.1 cm off and it’s fair enough.

Fair points, but if someone is 9.9 cm offside and another player is 10.1 cm offside, people will still be complaining that 2 mm makes the difference.

They really have opened Pandora's box with this accuracy nonsense and now it's difficult to close it again.

I am not sure football as we have known it is very VAR friendly. It's just all too subjective with single decisions more often than not affecting the outcome in low scoring games. Maybe "yes, they made a mistake but it's really difficult is better than "how can they get that wrong with all the technology?"

 

[domalino]

Fair points, but if someone is 9.9 cm offside and another player is 10.1 cm offside, people will still be complaining that 2 mm makes the difference.

Have you ever heard someone doing 34.1mph complain they got done speeding and wouldn’t have at 33?

And more importantly, has anyone they complained to thought that was an excuse? Or did they just say drive the speed limit and you wouldn’t get fined.

Every margin for error ends somewhere, that’s not an argument to not have one.

 

[jaiguruKun]

Only if you are on the "offside is a matter of fact", "the technology is good enough", "of course he is offside, his knee is in front of the last defender's heel" group of fans.

Personally, I don't like this obsession for accuracy for several reasons: firstly, it's an accuracy that no human can judge, so what's the point? And how many beautiful and important goals have been ruled out for super-marginal offside?; secondly, it is destroying the art of playing on/offside by players who really can't control movements to the degree to which they are being judged; thirdly, it goes against the original idea of gaining an advantage - there is no advantage gained by being where you are in a running movement; fourthly, the technology isn't accurate enough even, imho, with SAOT; fifthly, the offside laws and interpretations have been bastardised to the point hardly anyone can understand them, all for VAR.

Use VAR for offsides if you have to, but just for clear and obvious offside errors. Go with the on-field decisions unless it is literally feet (distance not body part) offside. The only one I can think of this season was the Spurs/Liverpool offside and I am not even sure about that one. No linesman is looking at a defender's feet.

All imho, of course, and I am sure there are more if you give me a minute.

A "referee's call" element is attractive but open to manipulation. No worse than what we currently have I suppose.

The VAR box has been opened, it isn't going anywhere. What is undeniable it's been in place at the PL for 5 years and there has been no improvement in its implementation at all. The system needs a big overhaul. Look at how they do it in the Champions League and copy that!

 

[Akira]

Honestly, I'd keep VAR. IMO, it's not the tools, it's the people using and interpreting the tools.

There needs to be a giant revision of the rules. Rules like the millimeter offside rule, taking ages to check if a player is a pubic hair offside, is ridiculous and does not serve to enforce the spirit of the offside rule.

I concur with some posters who don't want to go back. At least when my team is fucked over, I'd like to know what fucked us over. I don't even know if we can go back.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Have you ever heard someone doing 34.1mph complain they got done speeding and wouldn’t have at 33?

And more importantly, has anyone they complained to thought that was an excuse? Or did they just say drive the speed limit and you wouldn’t get fined.

Every margin for error ends somewhere, that’s not an argument to not have one.

It's not a legal argument, but put that in front of 50,000 rabid football fans in a stadium and a million or two watching on TV and I can predict the outcome will be ranting and raving pretty much the same as it is now, and pretty much the same as it was before VAR.

 

[domalino]

It's not a legal argument, but put that in front of 50,000 rabid football fans in a stadium and a million or two watching on TV and I can predict the outcome will be ranting and raving pretty much the same as it is now, and pretty much the same as it was before VAR.

So the 99% of people who are sensible will understand it, and the 1% will be exactly the same as they would if we had current VAR, no VAR or VAR with a margin?

Sign me up.


"How do we keep the most one-eyed conspiratorial demented people in society happy" isn't any kind of way to go about making rules.

 

[halfcenturyup]

A "referee's call" element is attractive but open to manipulation. No worse than what we currently have I suppose.

The VAR box has been opened, it isn't going anywhere. What is undeniable it's been in place at the PL for 5 years and there has been no improvement in its implementation at all. The system needs a big overhaul. Look at how they do it in the Champions League and copy that!

You might not think so from my posts on this thread (if anyone has been paying attention) but I recognise referees have an impossible job and they deserve support. I also think they can all do a good job, no matter who they support, if left to their own devices. And they know the rules better than 99% of the people who rant at them.

And you are right, of course. The VAR genie is already out of the bottle. I actually like this new clear and obvious interpretation that Webb has introduced. And I would like to see it introduced for offsides as well. Go with the lineman's subjective best-guess decision unless it is clearly and obviously wrong according to a subjective VAR decision. Job done. Then I would be in favour of keeping VAR.

(Note to naysayers who will point out this won't stop disputed decisions being endlessly discussed by the press and fans: nothing did before, nothing is doing now, and nothing will do in the future. Don't confuse what is best for the game with rabid fan ranting).