VAR thread 2022/23

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ric
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
domalino said:
I'd agree with @bluenova, you just think they take longer because when it's your team that's relying on a decision the wait is agonising.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if all decisions were studied and top 6 decisions took longer because the referees are more worried about getting them wrong in higher stakes games with bigger audiences.
Click to expand...
'Top 6'

I see what you did there ;-)
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
What is the PL's definition of when a pass is made? Is it when the foot first 'appears' to contact the ball, or is it when the ball 'appears' to leave the foot?

Dig out some slow motion video of a football being kicked on YouTube and see if you can work out the exact moment a ball is kicked, or when the ball leaves the foot. When is the pass actually made? Then imagine it at 50/100fps. It becomes totally subjective and I guarantee more than a single frame margin of error.

Sure, it could be worked out by knowing the EXACT position/velocity/direction of the passers foot, and the EXACT position/velocity/direction of the ball, plus the EXACT position of the attacker at the moment the pass is made (PREDICTED from the previous 6 bits of information) but that would require a lot more than a handful of cameras that would have to be calibrated to a high tolerance and synchronised.

VAR for offside is at best is a ball park estimation (pun intended), and the margin of error leaves it wide open to abuse.
Click to expand...
The auto system will have a sensor in the ball which updates 500 times a second. With a little computing power, they're going to be able to work out both the moment a player kicks the ball, and the moment it leaves their foot (I'd assume that changes in the ball direction/velocity mean this can be done without even knowing where the players foot is).

With the players, there will be 12 dedicated cameras, which track 29 points on each player, all the time. These are only 50fps, but by combining the camera data you'd be able to get an exact position for each of those 29 points, and if you know where each part of the body is every 1/50th of a second, then a little maths will allow you to work out where those body parts were in the time between, making it even more accurate.

I don't know if all this is perfect, but IF it works as described, then it's a lot more accurate than the 50fps camera angles they use now.
 
Don Karleone said:
Click to expand...

Interesting if true. Webb at least recognises the detachment from the game that VAR brings. And he's right about letting fans have access to the conversations. But this bit makes me fucked off with the yanks taking over our game. And tbh with them owning the crown jewels in the PL I can see things like this taking over.

"And he has also been part of the discussion gaining traction in America of 60-minute games where the clock is stopped every time the ball goes out of play."
 
Don Karleone said:
Click to expand...

As a World Cup Final referee he fits easily with the performance of Jack Taylor. Both were fuckin' useless, and Webb must have managed the worst performance of any World Cup Final referee since the competition began. Funny that the Dutch were on the shitty end of both of their performances, although Howie Redshirt let some shit go unpunished from the Dutch, including a studs in chest tackle for Nige, that had the fouls been perpetrated on a red shirt at The Swamp the game would have been abandoned as the opposition would have been down to just the goalie.
 
bluenova said:
The auto system will have a sensor in the ball which updates 500 times a second. With a little computing power, they're going to be able to work out both the moment a player kicks the ball, and the moment it leaves their foot (I'd assume that changes in the ball direction/velocity mean this can be done without even knowing where the players foot is).

With the players, there will be 12 dedicated cameras, which track 29 points on each player, all the time. These are only 50fps, but by combining the camera data you'd be able to get an exact position for each of those 29 points, and if you know where each part of the body is every 1/50th of a second, then a little maths will allow you to work out where those body parts were in the time between, making it even more accurate.

I don't know if all this is perfect, but IF it works as described, then it's a lot more accurate than the 50fps camera angles they use now.
Click to expand...
Unless the cameras are calibrated in position (to eliminate parallax and lens errors) then they won't be able to achieve the accuracy to the level they claim. Plus, it only takes one camera to be hit by a ball and it would require they whole system to be re calibrated. And, the exact moment of pass will still be no better than a guess.

And as for knowing where each body part will be every 1/50th of a second the system would need to allow for a change in velocity over that period which adds a margin of error.

So, yes it may be more accurate than the current system but I think they are overstating their claims somewhat.
 
Colin Bells Holdall said:
Then how is that measured?
Is it from the toenail, is it from only parts that can score, is it from the arm? Where is the 5cm rule written.
I would like to see the definition written down so it can be viewed objectively.
Click to expand...
It's fuckin bollox and just means the rule is even harder to implement. What if the players 6mm offside?
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
Unless the cameras are calibrated in position (to eliminate parallax and lens errors) then they won't be able to achieve the accuracy to the level they claim. Plus, it only takes one camera to be hit by a ball and it would require they whole system to be re calibrated. And, the exact moment of pass will still be no better than a guess.

And as for knowing where each body part will be every 1/50th of a second the system would need to allow for a change in velocity over that period which adds a margin of error.

So, yes it may be more accurate than the current system but I think they are overstating their claims somewhat.
Click to expand...
I expect all new systems are over sold, but not sure I agree that it's so difficult.

Why wouldn't they calibrate them? And I'd guess they're not in positions that are easily knocked - and perhaps can work with 10 cameras so have built in redundancy?

If you're measuring 500 times a second, then you're not guessing anything. There would be changes in the ball velocity/direction as soon as any contact was made, during contact, and then when it leaves the foot.

There can be a change in velocity over 1/50th of a second, but it's not someone with a ruler and graph paper trying to work it out. With multiple data points, and huge amounts of training, AI will be able to work out pretty accurately what's happened to every part of a player's body.

And as you say, it's likely more accurate, and if the current system is more accurate that a person, then it's another improvement.
 
bluenova said:
I expect all new systems are over sold, but not sure I agree that it's so difficult.

Why wouldn't they calibrate them? And I'd guess they're not in positions that are easily knocked - and perhaps can work with 10 cameras so have built in redundancy?

If you're measuring 500 times a second, then you're not guessing anything. There would be changes in the ball velocity/direction as soon as any contact was made, during contact, and then when it leaves the foot.

There can be a change in velocity over 1/50th of a second, but it's not someone with a ruler and graph paper trying to work it out. With multiple data points, and huge amounts of training, AI will be able to work out pretty accurately what's happened to every part of a player's body.

And as you say, it's likely more accurate, and if the current system is more accurate that a person, then it's another improvement.
Click to expand...
The camera frame rate is still 50fps, no matter how many time you sample it per second.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Interesting if true. Webb at least recognises the detachment from the game that VAR brings. And he's right about letting fans have access to the conversations. But this bit makes me fucked off with the yanks taking over our game. And tbh with them owning the crown jewels in the PL I can see things like this taking over.

"And he has also been part of the discussion gaining traction in America of 60-minute games where the clock is stopped every time the ball goes out of play."
Click to expand...
Has tgere been any positive noises about tge water breaks, and how quarter's may be beneficial to the game yet, cheerleaders?
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
The camera frame rate is still 50fps, no matter how many time you sample it per second.
Click to expand...
But you're not watching a single camera. You're using multiple cameras, along with AI, which will have been trained to work out where a body will be between those data points.

Sure, if you record a single position on a person's head and they accelerates in the middle of two 1/50 frames, then you can't know when that acceleration starts. However if you have the full body tracked, then AI which has watched millions of players move and compared them with the data, will be able to fill in the blanks much more accurately that any camera, or any human. It will know from small movements across the whole body exactly what the player's head is doing.

And ultimately, if it's more accurate than a human, and more accurate than a human looking at a camera, then it's an improvement.
 
Colin Bells Holdall said:
I am an engineer and on a drawing I would add a tolerance say for a linear dimension. So 300cm +\0-.5cm means that when the inspector measures the manufactured part it has to be 300cm long however the tolerance means it can be anywhere between 295.5cm to 300.5cm and not .01 of a cm more or less than the tolerance dimensions.
Click to expand...

So you're an engineer, and you would accept a manufactured part that is 295.5cm in length, when your drawing specified 300cm with a tolerance of +/- 0.5cm? Remind me not to buy one of your houses.
 
bluenova said:
But you're not watching a single camera. You're using multiple cameras, along with AI, which will have been trained to work out where a body will be between those data points.

Sure, if you record a single position on a person's head and they accelerates in the middle of two 1/50 frames, then you can't know when that acceleration starts. However if you have the full body tracked, then AI which has watched millions of players move and compared them with the data, will be able to fill in the blanks much more accurately that any camera, or any human. It will know from small movements across the whole body exactly what the player's head is doing.

And ultimately, if it's more accurate than a human, and more accurate than a human looking at a camera, then it's an improvement.
Click to expand...
I'll reserve full judgement until it's up and running and had a period of settling in. Even if they make it FULLY automatic I still think there will be a significant margin of error. And if there is any human input into the decision making process then we are no better off than under the old system.
 
In reply to multiple people, the off side law hasn’t actually changed in a long time. It used to be three players instead of two but that changed a long time ago.

It has always technically been judged from a part of the body that can legally score a goal. But that has never really mattered when it was being judged by a bloke with a flag just off the pitch. They brought in this T-shirt line thing to try and help establish exactly which part of the arm is handball and how high you have to go for it not to be. It’s still highly subjective though.

If we’re going to be judging things on inches, I think the best solution would be to amend the off side law so it is judged on boot position only.
 
Stephen230 said:
In reply to multiple people, the off side law hasn’t actually changed in a long time. It used to be three players instead of two but that changed a long time ago.

It has always technically been judged from a part of the body that can legally score a goal. But that has never really mattered when it was being judged by a bloke with a flag just off the pitch. They brought in this T-shirt line thing to try and help establish exactly which part of the arm is handball and how high you have to go for it not to be. It’s still highly subjective though.

If we’re going to be judging things on inches, I think the best solution would be to amend the off side law so it is judged on boot position only.
Click to expand...

Position of the head for me, for two reasons:

firstly, players use their eyes to judge whether they are offside or not, or if they are playing someone offside or not, the position of their boots has no bearing on their play;

secondly, boots move with feet in a running motion, it's pretty stupid to penalise someone for having a foot protracted in a normal running motion. Remember Foden (last year was it?). His head was onside, his torso was onside, but his foot was offside because he was striding forwards. At a different phase of the stride, his head, torso and both feet would have been onside. This makes offside calls a lottery based on where a player is in his stride. You can't expect players to manage that. You can expect them to judge the timing of runs based on what he sees. With his eyes. In his head.

Just my thoughts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top