Religion

[Fame Monster]

Why did the Roman Empire not mention him? They did with every other perceived threat to their rule. And acted accordingly in a brutal fashion to put it down.

Let’s look at the supposed scenario.

The Jews had been waiting for a Messiah. Their Messiah was not a hippy love everybody, including your slavery master. Theirs was one that weirder a sword and would vanquish their enemies and deliver them from bondage.

Jesus turns up, and if we are to believe the Bible, was having gatherings of thousands of people. The loaves and the fishes where he fed five thousand. He entered Bethlehem on a donkey to show humility with thousands of people laying palm leaves before him.

Now, where the Roman soldiers in control of Bethlehem straight out of Life if Brian? Did nobody ask, who is thus ****? Thousands of people are turning out for this self proclaimed Messiah. The Messiah according to Judaism would smite the Romans and nobody thought , maybe we should report thus back to Rome. Where the Senate would decide, as they had done countless times, to sort it out?

Not one mention in any Rinan document of him. A guy who could attract thousands of people fed up with Roman rule and whose own writings foretold a warrior?

They just let it go. Never bothered their arse? Really? The Roman Empire sustained through fear and power.

The reason there is no record of a threat or action to qwell that is simple. It never happened. Any leader who could attract the numbers the Bible claims Jesus attracted, would have been seen as a potential threat and dealt with accordingly.

Al the accounts of him where nearly 70 years after he was supposed to have lived through people who weren’t there.

The Romans took any threat seriously, read up on their response to threats across their empire. But, not a peep. Not one sentence about a Jewish guy who claimed to be the Messiah and could turn out the equivelant of five legions to listen to him?

There isn’t a mention because it didn’t happen. Rome lasted centuries on the basis of control and subjugation of threat.

A guy who is supposed to be a sword wielding freedom fighter never raised an eyebrow?

If anybody believes that happened, I have five magic beans going at a competitive price.

You do realise that a couple of hundred years after Jesus' death, there were Roman emperors who converted to Christianity?

 

[BimboBob]

You do realise that a couple of hundred years after Jesus' death, there were Roman emperors who converted to Christianity?

And then made shit up. Appease the great unwashed.

 

[Fame Monster]

And then made shit up. Appease the great unwashed.

I suppose the question is then, if Jesus didn't exist, who created Christianity?

 

[Aphex]

I suppose the question is then, if Jesus didn't exist, who created Christianity?

 

[I'm no cynic but...]

You do realise that a couple of hundred years after Jesus' death, there were Roman emperors who converted to Christianity?

Emperor Constantine is worth a [slight] read-up on this subject. Three hundred or so years after Christianity got up and running, he was the emperor who legalized it in Rome, but only in his own interests. He believed that with only one religion and with one empire then there would only be one emperor [himself] rather than the squabblers behind his back, and he used Christianity to further his ambitions. Because of the rising power of the heathen East, and the threat to the empire borders coming from there, he moved the base of the empire from Rome to Byzantium [now Turkey] and renamed the city there as Constantinople. Constantine himself was a vicious man rather than a Christian one and only converted to the religion on his death bed, his reasoning being that he was 'purified' by his baptism and that being cleansed and sin free from then, he would find his way into paradise. What happened to that region of the world has always been a turbulent one and is a big subject, but Christianity split from one religion into three major ones and with the spread of Mongol incursion with their Mohammedan beliefs, we still see the repercussions today.

 

[oldtimerdiscopants]

The holy Roman empire is still alive and kicking isn't it?

On the religion side of things I have a friend who used to be friends with most of the people I know but his constant testifying and criticism of how people led their lives has caused them to say enough is enough because he's so vociferous about how damned we all are. He didn't use to be religious but he now sees Jesus in toast and is full of every conspiracy theory to prove his point that we must be stupid not to see.

He's also lost his wife because he started putting crucifixes around the house and began to act like a stern disciplinarian, it wont be long before I have to let him go because it gets to be very very hard work although I really do want to be there for him.

 

[york away to this!]

My guess is 28,743 pages before we are all struck down by a great plague of devils...

 

[I'm With Stupid]

The holy Roman empire is still alive and kicking isn't it?

On the religion side of things I have a friend who used to be friends with most of the people I know but his constant testifying and criticism of how people led their lives has caused them to say enough is enough because he's so vociferous about how damned we all are. He didn't use to be religious but he now sees Jesus in toast and is full of every conspiracy theory to prove his point that we must be stupid not to see.

He's also lost his wife because he started putting crucifixes around the house and began to act like a stern disciplinarian, it wont be long before I have to let him go because it gets to be very very hard work although I really do want to be there for him.

I don't know if this is your friend, but born again ones are always the worst. I was working in Morocco and we had a British Muslim convert there who all of the locals thought was a bit much. People who get into it in later life always seem to be a bit more......keen to share. Kinda like the newly out gay person who seems to overcompensate by properly camping it up, or the newly vegan person who won't stop banging on about it.

 

[oldtimerdiscopants]

I don't know if this is your friend, but born again ones are always the worst. I was working in Morocco and we had a British Muslim convert there who all of the locals thought was a bit much. People who get into it in later life always seem to be a bit more......keen to share. Kinda like the newly out gay person who seems to overcompensate by properly camping it up, or the newly vegan person who won't stop banging on about it.

He goes to a normal church or what you'd call a normal church and he's a new convert mate. He's always giving me suggestions about which you tube video to watch and goes on about how the earth isn't round in any way but it's flat and he genuinely believes that the water would drop off the bottom of the earth if it wasn't.
I watched a film called 'A case For Christ' which he informed me would 100% make me believe in Jesus but after I watched it and told him it didn't move me one bit he just accused me of having a closed mind, I have literally had to drag people away from him that he infuriated that much they wanted to lay hands on him and not in the biblical sense.

 

[Henkeman]

Why did the Roman Empire not mention him?

Frankly bizarre that anyone would expect it to. There's zero primary evidence for Pilate, the governor of Judea. There's sod all for Quirinius except his appointment.

Once again, people are holding stuff to higher standards than for anywhere else in the ancient world. Hell, there's sweet FA about most of Claudius' reign as emperor for that matter, while Vespasian's life is almost entirely a mystery up to his accession. These are emperors.

Historians do not dispute Jesus' authenticity. Most accept the Gospel of John as an eyewitness account. I guess BM know better.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

He goes to a normal church or what you'd call a normal church and he's a new convert mate. He's always giving me suggestions about which you tube video to watch and goes on about how the earth isn't round in any way but it's flat and he genuinely believes that the water would drop off the bottom of the earth if it wasn't.

Yeah, sounds like one of those people who gets dragged into a web of bullshit and they end up believing all sorts of unrelated stuff. There's nothing really to link Christianity and the flat earth movement other than the fact that the same people happen to fall for both myths, and probably Youtube/Facebook algorithms can predict that someone watching lots of bullshit religious conspiracy theory videos is probably going to be ripe for flat Earth ones too. Is he an anti-vaxxer too by any chance?

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Frankly bizarre that anyone would expect it to. There's zero primary evidence for Pilate, the governor of Judea. There's sod all for Quirinius except his appointment.

Once again, people are holding stuff to higher standards than for anywhere else in the ancient world. Hell, there's sweet FA about most of Claudius' reign as emperor for that matter, while Vespasian's life is almost entirely a mystery up to his accession. These are emperors.

Historians do not dispute Jesus' authenticity. Most accept the Gospel of John as an eyewitness account. I guess BM know better.

To be fair, there are very few people who claim that our society and laws should be based around the life and teachings of Claudius, so it's understandable that the realities surrounding the existence of Jesus (or Mohammed, or any other religious figure, for that matter) is subject to greater scrutiny than that of a mere historical figure, given that people are still keen on shoving his supposed teachings down everyone's throat and ultimately making all of us subject to them in terms of social rules and laws.

 

[oldtimerdiscopants]

Yeah, sounds like one of those people who gets dragged into a web of bullshit and they end up believing all sorts of unrelated stuff. There's nothing really to link Christianity and the flat earth movement other than the fact that the same people happen to fall for both myths, and probably Youtube/Facebook algorithms can predict that someone watching lots of bullshit religious conspiracy theory videos is probably going to be ripe for flat Earth ones too. Is he an anti-vaxxer too by any chance?

One of the reasons why his wife called it a day was because health and fitness was down to God and not anything silly like vaccinations. The biggest problem his family faced is that because he has a relationship with God and in particular with Jesus and he isn't doing joined up thinking on other things the medical profession are reluctant to do a mental heath assessment.
I'm of the firm and staunch belief that a great entity doesn't exist and that God didn't write any of the books so I am in a really awkward position to dispute too vigorously his claims to the contrary, personally and my own honest opinion is that he's on the edge of a mental breakdown and is getting no help for it.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

One of the reasons why his wife called it a day was because health and fitness was down to God and not anything silly like vaccinations. The biggest problem his family faced is that because he has a relationship with God and in particular with Jesus and he isn't doing joined up thinking on other things the medical profession are reluctant to do a mental heath assessment.
I'm of the firm and staunch belief that a great entity doesn't exist and that God didn't write any of the books so I am in a really awkward position to dispute too vigorously his claims to the contrary, personally and my own honest opinion is that he's on the edge of a mental breakdown and is getting no help for it.

Hmm, yeah I think the traditional Christopher Hitchens/Richard Dawkins approach isn't going to make any ground, particularly with a religious convert. I did see a brilliant video once of someone who simply asked questions in the way that Louis Theroux might to get them to think about the logical conclusions of their beliefs and get them to challenge their own views and come to conclusions themselves. I can't remember what it was called though. But again, it probably works better with the sort of people who are religious but have never really been exposed to alternative viewpoints and never really thought about it, rather than the religious converts. Of course the alternative is to simply lead the person to a less extreme form of the religion, but another more moderate religious person might be best-placed to do that.

But yeah, it would be interesting to know what the trigger for their conversion was. Because based on the stories I've read, there is usually some sort of emotionally-based reason for someone converting to a religion, particularly if they were completely non-religious beforehand.

 

[Henkeman]

To be fair, there are very few people who claim that our society and laws should be based around the life and teachings of Claudius, so it's understandable that the realities surrounding the existence of Jesus (or Mohammed, or any other religious figure, for that matter) is subject to greater scrutiny than that of a mere historical figure, given that people are still keen on shoving his supposed teachings down everyone's throat and ultimately making all of us subject to them in terms of social rules and laws.

I'm purely talking about the historical record. Odd that for the third time in this thread, I end up having to point out I'm an atheist.

Accepting the historical probability of events does not make me an advocate for Christianity. At all.

 

[better dead than red]

It’s doesnt really (although Tennessee is still technically dry iirc). It does have dry counties, however. In fact the Jack Daniels distillery is located in one such county, believe it or not.

It is county by county as well.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

I'm purely talking about the historical record. Odd that for the third time in this thread, I end up having to point out I'm an atheist.

Accepting the historical probability of events does not make me an advocate for Christianity. At all.

No, but it's still a reason why it gets more scrutiny that other historical events in popular culture. No doubt academic historians treat Jesus exactly the same as any other claimed historical figure.

 

[better dead than red]

Not to mention that in Mein Kampf Hitler mentioned 'doing God's work about 5 or 6 times; the SS had something like 'God is strength' as their motto (think it was written on their belts) and the Vatican not only endorsed Hitler, but celebrated his birthday! Nazi Germany was in many ways a theocracy.


To add to that: in the story of Nativity, Joseph and Mary returning to Bethlehem to take part in a census. Even ignoring the somewhat self-defeating idea that censuses required people to return to their place of birth (as opposed to staying and being accounted for in the place they were living - kind of the point of a census), there is no record whatsoever of a census taking place at that time (yet all others were recorded and kept).

The SS motto translated to "My honour is called loyalty.'

Hitler was neither a Christian nor an atheist. He used most every position available at times to manipulate the public as he saw necessary.

 

[better dead than red]

Frankly bizarre that anyone would expect it to. There's zero primary evidence for Pilate, the governor of Judea. There's sod all for Quirinius except his appointment.

Once again, people are holding stuff to higher standards than for anywhere else in the ancient world. Hell, there's sweet FA about most of Claudius' reign as emperor for that matter, while Vespasian's life is almost entirely a mystery up to his accession. These are emperors.

Historians do not dispute Jesus' authenticity. Most accept the Gospel of John as an eyewitness account. I guess BM know better.

Don't mind them. Christians are easy targets in their mind. It'll typically be a long wait before most of them mock the prophet of Islam. (pbuh).

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I still cant get over the idea of the USA having dry states, its a weird place in parts.

Which states are those?

There are dry COUNTIES, and some counties have dry Sundays only, but there are no dry STATES of which I’m aware.