Religion

tonea2003 said:
how do you know you have a relationship with god, how do you know its him that's the core of my questions

what is the single one thing that you could give me to convince me its god

because you keep saying it is, what it is exactly

and as for authors of the bible its probably many authors over many centuries even the gospels cannot be directly attributed to the 4 disciples

interesting interview below i know you will diss it

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Mat, Luke, Mark and John, were names attributed to the gospels. They were never apostles as nobody knew and still don’t, who wrote texts that spanned literally centuries.

Another thing you are never told as a child. The fact they all contradict each other in their accounts of the key events was somehow missed in the final edit.
 
Magicpole said:
Mat, Luke, Mark and John, were names attributed to the gospels. They were never apostles as nobody knew and still don’t, who wrote texts that spanned literally centuries.

Another thing you are never told as a child. The fact they all contradict each other in their accounts of the key events was somehow missed in the final edit.
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But, but, but that's what you have to believe, or you'll spend eterrnity (in your case) at Ibrox.
 
Magicpole said:
I look at the book in its entirety. I cannot balance thevgate with the love. To love cannot involve genocide. Cannot accommodate the direction to kill those who do not share your beliefs. Cannot sit with the principal that to own other human beings us just. Cannot sit with instructing a father to kill his son. Cannot live with a man giving up gus daughters to be raped by a mob to save angels. Cannot live with condemning people to spent an eternity of burning for failing to believe. Cannot live with forgiving a life of evil because someone takes the route of accepting him.

I was brought up to believe this shit. To fear hell. To believe he was good. Once I started to actually read the book I could not see this being as anything other than a vengeful psychopath. I was able to separate the wheat from the chaff. The contradictions.

Add that in with the total absence in the historical record. The similarities with other Bronze Age myths, the Adam and Evev myth, the fear flood, the sux day creation, the earth being the centre of the universe. Then asked myself, how could a being who created it all know so little about how it actually happened. To repeat what man knew at the time, which was fuck all. It is a curse. It demonises homosexuals. It hates shrimps, it tells us to kill people who work on Sundays. It tells us to kill all who do not believe. It tells us women are chattels. It tells us to kill witches.

How anyone can look at all that and say, that’s for me. That’s the truth. That’s good. Is beyond my comprehension and understanding of justice and compassion.

If he actually did exist and showed us he did, I would still reject him as I would any human tyrant who held his views of humanity.

My experience as a child where my critical and moral faculties were expected to think this was ok, is and was immoral. To frighten children that they will burn in hell for being human is abhorrent.

I’m sure Hitler had his nice moments. We look at the entirety of his life though and don’t cherry pick. Why do we cherry pick with god and spend our lives making up excuses and rationale for indefensible pronouncements and actions?

It’s wrong. Immoral and evil masquerading as good.

Manking has been going in the homosapien form for up to 300,000 years, yet we are to believe he waited for 298,000 years before stepping in?

Nonsense.
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Thanks. I would agree that this unlike a God of Love. I can also see how humans might project there own worst quality ono this God and make all sorts of crazy stuff up. Lots of laws about morality. Oh and you have to fear 'him' obviously otherwise you will go to hell. Lots of damnations because, well why to - sounds quite dramatic and draws a crowd.Does this not a sound a bit like what got Trump elected 'Lock her up!' gets people excited...she is evil...goddamn her. Maybe this is what the churches of old used to, to gain popularity, 'election' and control? This is what them 'power' in other words. Then some beardy bloke comes along and starts teaching that God is Love and all that other stuff 'might.not.be.that. true. right?' This would surely be a huge threat to their power base soooo....kill him. Probe solved. And he was quite popular too so maybe lets a few things that he said and write a book with this....and then add in all the other stuff that worked before...and attribute it to his name. Ha, genius - best of both worlds, right...and if you question the old stuff that we attribute to mr beardy, then we''ll have some people that this must mean that you are dismissing everything in the book. ha!!!! That''ll keep the fuckers in ignorance whilst believing that they are 'doing the right thing.' "kingdom of heaven is within? Sure but you only get to know this if you listen to us and only then after you die...'

Does any of the above strike you as being remotely possible?

Anyhow, beyond that would you agree with the idea that 'the truth sets you free?' I mean, even in science or any secular study, the idea that opening to truth will set one free (from untruth) surely holds value. So, what is truth, for you? For me I would say the greatest 'truth I have known' is an inner felt state of love. Opening to this is confusing - is kind of like 'this is so ridiculously unlike how I thought myself to be.' What would happen if I spoke to some people about this love that is felt like one's true identity? Would people be open to this or might they say 'no, the church says your original nature is one of sin, so if we agree with you we''ll go to hell'. Or maybe they would demand that I prove it scientifically before they will listen - like somehow I have to use symbols, letters and numbers to prove that which is 'before' symbols, letters and numbers. Fuck, I don't know...And what if I said 'you know that unconditional Love that Jesus supposedly spoke of? Well, if what I experienced is just the slightest touch of this Love that was spoken of...then it makes no sense whatsoever that Jesus would have said some of things that are attributed to him. But would people be open to that? Not so sure, right? So, bearing all that in my mind it's like, far out - maybe life would just be easier if I forgot this and tried to act normally, whatever that is. And this might work for a while but then the suffering comes along and its like ahhh, this is what the Love thing sets me free from - ok, let's see if I can open once more to this Love, perhaps a little longer this time. Hmmm, maybe it would helpful to have some support? I wonder where I might find this? I know!!! I'll write on a 'Religion' thread on the bluemoon forum - that'll surely do the trick....after all, its renowned for being open to this kind of thing....people are always welcoming and friendly, curious as to ways of Light, Art and Beauty. LMFAO...oh, well - maybe not or, then again, who knows? ;)
 
arfurclue said:
Thanks. I would agree that this unlike a God of Love. I can also see how humans might project there own worst quality ono this God and make all sorts of crazy stuff up. Lots of laws about morality. Oh and you have to fear 'him' obviously otherwise you will go to hell. Lots of damnations because, well why to - sounds quite dramatic and draws a crowd.Does this not a sound a bit like what got Trump elected 'Lock her up!' gets people excited...she is evil...goddamn her. Maybe this is what the churches of old used to, to gain popularity, 'election' and control? This is what them 'power' in other words. Then some beardy bloke comes along and starts teaching that God is Love and all that other stuff 'might.not.be.that. true. right?' This would surely be a huge threat to their power base soooo....kill him. Probe solved. And he was quite popular too so maybe lets a few things that he said and write a book with this....and then add in all the other stuff that worked before...and attribute it to his name. Ha, genius - best of both worlds, right...and if you question the old stuff that we attribute to mr beardy, then we''ll have some people that this must mean that you are dismissing everything in the book. ha!!!! That''ll keep the fuckers in ignorance whilst believing that they are 'doing the right thing.' "kingdom of heaven is within? Sure but you only get to know this if you listen to us and only then after you die...'

Does any of the above strike you as being remotely possible?

Anyhow, beyond that would you agree with the idea that 'the truth sets you free?' I mean, even in science or any secular study, the idea that opening to truth will set one free (from untruth) surely holds value. So, what is truth, for you? For me I would say the greatest 'truth I have known' is an inner felt state of love. Opening to this is confusing - is kind of like 'this is so ridiculously unlike how I thought myself to be.' What would happen if I spoke to some people about this love that is felt like one's true identity? Would people be open to this or might they say 'no, the church says your original nature is one of sin, so if we agree with you we''ll go to hell'. Or maybe they would demand that I prove it scientifically before they will listen - like somehow I have to use symbols, letters and numbers to prove that which is 'before' symbols, letters and numbers. Fuck, I don't know...And what if I said 'you know that unconditional Love that Jesus supposedly spoke of? Well, if what I experienced is just the slightest touch of this Love that was spoken of...then it makes no sense whatsoever that Jesus would have said some of things that are attributed to him. But would people be open to that? Not so sure, right? So, bearing all that in my mind it's like, far out - maybe life would just be easier if I forgot this and tried to act normally, whatever that is. And this might work for a while but then the suffering comes along and its like ahhh, this is what the Love thing sets me free from - ok, let's see if I can open once more to this Love, perhaps a little longer this time. Hmmm, maybe it would helpful to have some support? I wonder where I might find this? I know!!! I'll write on a 'Religion' thread on the bluemoon forum - that'll surely do the trick....after all, its renowned for being open to this kind of thing....people are always welcoming and friendly, curious as to ways of Light, Art and Beauty. LMFAO...oh, well - maybe not or, then again, who knows? ;)
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The truth doesn’t always set you free. Look around the world at he untold millions living in desperate conditions. It does set you right though, to accept the situation for what it is, rather than what you convince yourself it to be.

To make accommodations in your mind to overlook what the whole truth is, is not an acceptance of truth, it is an a dilution of that truth in order for you to be able to sit with it.

I have no problem with people believing, as I too once did. I would only ask them to read it minus the cognitive dissonance and accept what it says repeatedly and that if any modern Messiah was to advocate you would think them a monster.

2,000-3,000 years should not be allowed to dilute that. Being an apologist for it ignores the truth of its own words. Not mine.

If you wrote that you wanted to kill everyone who did not believe what you believe. Who would be in the wrong? You for believing that, ot me for pointing out you wrote and believed it?
 
yep said:
I maintain that there are some things you just know as you experience them. Like your experience of love with your partner, you can witness and testify to it but the one thing you cannot do is prove it. Religion is from "religio" to bind. Religion is only a means to the end of being one with God!
I did try and ask you the same question about your certitude about your love for your partner. How come one day you did not love them and the next day you did? What is the one single thing you could give me to convince me you love your partner.
Did you not know that your father/ mother had walked in the room when you were a child although you had your back to him/her and he/she did not make a sound but you recognised a presence without any physical senses involved?
I cannot convince you there is a God although you do believe in the Trinity of Coin, Cid, and Ence.
It is a relationship. There was a time when I had no experience of God, now I do. All I can do is testify and witness to my experiences. All you have to do is be hnest with yourself!
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but you are not are you, you are trying to associate something between two people who can see each to one where you can't , not remotely the same

you aren't testifying to anything as that requires evidence

i feel you have been fooled, either by your mind or by indoctrination

and as i have said before you can believe what you want how you want that's none of my business, but if you start telling me this is real/true like you have been, i am within my rights to ask you who/how/why etc, not unreasonable
 
tonea2003 said:
but you are not are you, you are trying to associate something between two people who can see each to one where you can't , not remotely the same

you aren't testifying to anything as that requires evidence

i feel you have been fooled, either by your mind or by indoctrination

and as i have said before you can believe what you want how you want that's none of my business, but if you start telling me this is real/true like you have been, i am within my rights to ask you who/how/why etc, not unreasonable
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You cannot prove the love between two visible beings yet you want me to prove the love between the spiritual God and me. Makes perfect sense.
 
yep said:
You cannot prove the love between two visible beings yet you want me to prove the love between the spiritual God and me. Makes perfect sense.
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pure deflection again, you can see in the way people act with each other, that we all associate with being in love

how many times have you heard "they look so in love together"

i might be able to see you love a god in the way you act but what about in return - a loving relationship requires at least two

give me the evidence for the god you love loving you
 
tonea2003 said:
pure deflection again, you can see in the way people act with each other, that we all associate with being in love

how many times have you heard "they look so in love together"

i might be able to see you love a god in the way you act but what about in return - a loving relationship requires at least two

give me the evidence for the god you love loving you
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tonea2003 said:
pure deflection again, you can see in the way people act with each other, that we all associate with being in love

how many times have you heard "they look so in love together"

i might be able to see you love a god in the way you act but what about in return - a loving relationship requires at least two

give me the evidence for the god you love loving you
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you accuse me of deflection!
Have you seen Carousel the musical.
Watch the scene where they sing " If I loved you" and you could weep but they were ACTING!
Meatloaf might disagree with your diagnois. "Two out of three" relationships look "lovey".
"And all I can do is keep on telling you
I want you
I need you
But there ain't no way
I'm ever gonna love you
Now don't be sad
'Cause two out of three ain't bad
Now don't be sad
'Cause two out of three ain't bad"
I believe you are peeved cos you cannot scientifically prove that you love your partner although you know it to be TRUE!
 
yep said:
you accuse me of deflection!
Have you seen Carousel the musical.
Watch the scene where they sing " If I loved you" and you could weep but they were ACTING!
Meatloaf might disagree with your diagnois. "Two out of three" relationships look "lovey".
"And all I can do is keep on telling you
I want you
I need you
But there ain't no way
I'm ever gonna love you
Now don't be sad
'Cause two out of three ain't bad
Now don't be sad
'Cause two out of three ain't bad"
I believe you are peeved cos you cannot scientifically prove that you love your partner although you know it to be TRUE!
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Fuck me. Talk about intellectual tap dancing?
 
Magicpole said:
The truth doesn’t always set you free. Look around the world at he untold millions living in desperate conditions. It does set you right though, to accept the situation for what it is, rather than what you convince yourself it to be.

To make accommodations in your mind to overlook what the whole truth is, is not an acceptance of truth, it is an a dilution of that truth in order for you to be able to sit with it.

I have no problem with people believing, as I too once did. I would only ask them to read it minus the cognitive dissonance and accept what it says repeatedly and that if any modern Messiah was to advocate you would think them a monster.

2,000-3,000 years should not be allowed to dilute that. Being an apologist for it ignores the truth of its own words. Not mine.

If you wrote that you wanted to kill everyone who did not believe what you believe. Who would be in the wrong? You for believing that, ot me for pointing out you wrote and believed it?
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That's a concept/belief right? Truth is another what is an essential state of being - some might use the word 'heart' to point to this. So as one opens to the heart, then one begins to feel freed from the untruths of the mind that are unlike the Truth of the Heart. As one is willing to let go of untruths of the mind then one is deeper able to open to the Heart. Goes in cvcles - through this, the concepts left in the mind more and more come to reflect the conceptless nature of the Truth of the Heart. This some call Love. So, in this way, it does begin to set one free from the untrue concepts of the mind that, with attachment to them, bring suffering. - for you come to trust and feel rooted in Love.

So, to go back a bit one might say that it is the idea that truth is primarily a concept (and then stuff like love is sort of true but because you can't measure it in a laboratory then its mot that important) that eventually is found to be untrue - instead it is opening to essence as primary Truth (with concepts as secondary truth) that truly sets one free. In the former the veracity of words attributed to Jesus may be debated, in the latter for some of these words to be attributed is self - evidently nonsense.
 
yep said:
you accuse me of deflection!
Have you seen Carousel the musical.
Watch the scene where they sing " If I loved you" and you could weep but they were ACTING!
Meatloaf might disagree with your diagnois. "Two out of three" relationships look "lovey".
"And all I can do is keep on telling you
I want you
I need you
But there ain't no way
I'm ever gonna love you
Now don't be sad
'Cause two out of three ain't bad
Now don't be sad
'Cause two out of three ain't bad"
I believe you are peeved cos you cannot scientifically prove that you love your partner although you know it to be TRUE!
Click to expand...

lets for the sake of argument we can't prove a partner loves another(which is kind of true as we will never never know what the other half actually thinks) but through visible actions we can see things that we can attribute and widely recognise as a state of being in love

how does that make your situation the same

we have one set where we can all universally agree there are at least two in this particular relationship and make a realistic view on a loving relationship
and yours where there is only one and you are telling me there is another but no one can see, even you can't and you say its a feeling, but can't give one iota of anything to say it is

like i say i feel you have been fooled by either your mind or indoctrination
 
tonea2003 said:
lets for the sake of argument we can't prove a partner loves another(which is kind of true as we will never never know what the other half actually thinks) but through visible actions we can see things that we can attribute and widely recognise as a state of being in love

how does that make your situation the same

we have one set where we can all universally agree there are at least two in this particular relationship and make a realistic view on a loving relationship
and yours where there is only one and you are telling me there is another but no one can see, even you can't and you say its a feeling, but can't give one iota of anything to say it is

like i say i feel you have been fooled by either your mind or indoctrination
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like i say i feel you have been fooled by either your mind or indoctrination. Could be said of any relationship but feelings are witnessing to something not proving!
Feel away!!!
 
yep said:
like i say i feel you have been fooled by either your mind or indoctrination. Could be said of any relationship but feelings are witnessing to something not proving!
Feel away!!!
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but you just won't tell me how you know

why on earth should i believe what you say, give me one good reason
 
"All concepts of God are like a jar we break, because only the infinite can contain our perfect love." St Teresa of Avila.
 
tonea2003 said:
but you just won't tell me how you know

why on earth should i believe what you say, give me one good reason
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No reason why you should believe what I say. I used to believe in Santa but no longer believe in him. The definition of faith is experience of things unseen. You have experienced love that at one time was not there and then it was. At one time you were in the presence of your partner but did not love them. When you loved them did you SEE something that was not-there before?
 
yep said:
No reason why you should believe what I say. I used to believe in Santa but no longer believe in him. The definition of faith is experience of things unseen. You have experienced love that at one time was not there and then it was. At one time you were in the presence of your partner but did not love them. When you loved them did you SEE something that was not-there before?
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i refer you to the reply i gave a while ago
 
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