Are Labour a total shambles now as an opposition?

Magicpole said:
I don’t think we will have any issues when the EU know we voted 62% to remain. If I’m honest though, i’m still not totally convinced we will go for it, as there are so many people up here who love the royal family and the flag, mostly down to religious sectarianism and even if they knew we would be screwed, would still vote to stay.

So although Corbyn and his party are playing a blinder it may not be enough. There is a strong subservient group up here who lovee to tug their forelock to the Royal Family, which of course is entirely within their rights.

People are calling for Sturgeon to call one, but I would advise waiting. This shitfest hasn’t even begun. There is no need to go for it just yet. There is obviously the possibility, however remote that a people’s vote might be called. If that were to happen, a huge majority to stay would be returned and that could scupper things for us too. So, it’s a situation that is filled with danger. Go too soon and the pain might not be enough. Go too late and a new vote might convince people to stay under the boot of Westminster.

We have been totally disregarded in every sense, but, as I said, some people are totally subservient and “loyal” and my fear is there are enough of them to defeat Indy 2.

I hope I’m wrong, but sadly I don’t think so.
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Bit of a Catch 22 as you say.
But bearing in mind you got 45% last time when Cameron promised that the UK was staying in the EU, surely after the last 2 years of Mayhem which to me looks like we're leaving one way or another, you could reverse the percentages?
 
robbieh said:
Bit of a Catch 22 as you say.
But bearing in mind you got 45% last time when Cameron promised that the UK was staying in the EU, surely after the last 2 years of Mayhem which to me looks like we're leaving one way or another, you could reverse the percentages?
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The latest figures suggest it’s moved to 53%. That’s disappointing with all that’s going on. Perhaps as I said, when the shit really hits the fan that will increase. But, I wouldn’t be too confident that will happen for the reasons I outlined.
 
mat said:
In the mean time you can keep feeling threatened by a party that wants to help all rather than protect a rich few.
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Cheap words which unfortunately bear no resemblance to reality, as evidenced by the fact more people vote Conservative than they do Labour, and most people aren't "a rich few".

When that penny finally drops, and you get over your obsession with "the rich", maybe your lot might have a crack at government. Until then, you'll continue to come up with a narrative which alienates most voters.
 
Not a lot of point Labour risking a vote of No Confidence if they're in any doubt that some Tories will vote with the opposition, they'd lose and Mrs May would be in a stronger position. As for more people voting Labour, the problem has always been over intellectualising their policies so that people aren't prepared to wade through the detail. Instead a majority of voters rely on newspapers which are basically anti-Labour, so the picture is always distorted.
 
The best thing Corbyn has done for his electability is be ambiguous towards Brexit. I still doubt it will be enough which probably tells you all you need to know about him, less so the Labour Party who still have a number of highly intelligent, compassionate, and (hopefully) electable politicians.
 
The perfect fumble said:
He doesn't have the numbers to bring the government down.

Last Friday 117 Tory MPs voted to boot May out, with those numbers he could at least dislodge the Prime Minister in a no confidence vote, but in the space of 72 hours the honourable 117 have rediscovered their love for her.

The Brexit vote has now been postponed until January, while the government is herding Parliament in to three dead end options, May's plan, crash out, remain.

PS: Blair's intervention has not helped.
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Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who lost a motion of no confidence by 197–40 in June 2016,
 
Fame Monster said:
The best thing Corbyn has done for his electability is be ambiguous towards Brexit. I still doubt it will be enough which probably tells you all you need to know about him, less so the Labour Party who still have a number of highly intelligent, compassionate, and (hopefully) electable politicians.
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The perfect fumble said:
Enlighten me....

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See the recent Labour whip which advocated supporting tax cuts for the rich. Lisa Nandy, Lucy Powell, David Lammy and others opposed it, sane enough to realise that a programme of massive public spending has to be funded by taxing more than the top 5% - and that income tax is the most equitable way to raise the money. Are they Tories? No. Are they Corbynites? No. Are they Blairites? No. Are they Labour? Yes.
 
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Fame Monster said:
See the recent Labour whip which advocated supporting tax cuts for the rich. Lisa Nandy, Lucy Powell, David Lammy and others opposed it, sane enough to realise that a programme of massive public spending has to be funded by taxing more than the top 5% - and that income tax is the most equitable way to raise the money. Are they Tories? No. Are they Corbynites? No. Are they Blairites? No. Are they Labour? Yes.
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None the wiser after this post. Not sure who it is you're saying is "Labour" and even if I'm reading it correctly, I'm not sure what point you're making.

I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but this makes no sense to me whatsoever.
 
The perfect fumble said:
None the wiser after this post. Not sure who it is you're saying is "Labour" and even if I'm reading it correctly, I'm not sure what point you're making.

I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but this makes no sense to me whatsoever.
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The names of the Labour MPs are in the post. Lisa Nandy, David Lammy, and Lucy Powell. None of them are Tories or Corbynites or Blairites, they subscribe to a Labour ideology that falls in between that on lots of issues. Therefore, the dichotomy you gave that everyone who thinks Corbyn is a joke is a Blairite or Tory is false.
 
taleofbluehalves said:
I just don’t see what Labour’s strategy is. They seem happy to sit back and see what happens. They want an election but with the polls being so close it’s highly unlikely they’ll win never mind get a majority. In terms of Brexit they just seem happy to fudge it waiting for an election or people’s vote but not really nailing their colours to their mast.
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Labour do not have a strategy.
All his political life Corbyn has just voted against, he has been perminatly at odds with his party.
He has never had a workable alternative to anything in his life.
The guy is a fraud.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Cheap words which unfortunately bear no resemblance to reality, as evidenced by the fact more people vote Conservative than they do Labour, and most people aren't "a rich few".

When that penny finally drops, and you get over your obsession with "the rich", maybe your lot might have a crack at government. Until then, you'll continue to come up with a narrative which alienates most voters.
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You, like many Con voters, live in a Thatcher-ite ideology, still; work a bit harder, reap the benefits. Being taxed from 12k is ridiculous especially when you could be paid a living wage and receive a higher tax band that goes towards helping the NHS, infrastructure and education.

Tell me how squeezing the many for the few they have, works?

"Your lot"(Labour) is trying to be socially responsible and not responding to dumb threats like 'nuclear war' when we have better served needs, here and now.

This is my nutshell view:

This Labour is trying to be like the community we used to know, where we were welcome in each other's houses in our streets and were attuned to helping each other.

Your Cons are like we are now, close the door when you get home, suspicious of everyone and deal with your own problems.
 
Fame Monster said:
The names of the Labour MPs are in the post. Lisa Nandy, David Lammy, and Lucy Powell. None of them are Tories or Corbynites or Blairites, they subscribe to a Labour ideology that falls in between that on lots of issues. Therefore, the dichotomy you gave that everyone who thinks Corbyn is a joke is a Blairite or Tory is false.
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Maybe I'm being thick but isn't that true any party, any village, any district, any county, any country...?

Whilst one may not be in complete alignment with a view, your camp will fall closest to one over another, even in increments.

Nothing is ever black and white for viewpoints.
 
Bigga said:
You, like many Con voters, live in a Thatcher-ite ideology, still; work a bit harder, reap the benefits. Being taxed from 12k is ridiculous especially when you could be paid a living wage and receive a higher tax band that goes towards helping the NHS, infrastructure and education.
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I won't reply to the rest since I think it's pretty random nonsense imo. But the above I will comment on.

I agree that no-one on £12k a year should be paying tax. I've said so on this very forum several times. We have Gordon Brown to thank for taxing people who shouldn't be paying any, only to give it back to them in benefits. An absolute joke of a situation which serves no purpose other than to make people feel dependent upon the state and at the same time feeding an army of public sector workers to administer the pointless endeavour.

But your implied idea that we simply pay people more is seriously flawed. If we lived in a bubble this could work, but we don't. We live in a competitive world and if we pay our people more than the value they deliver, the goods and services we produce will be uncompetitive with other countries. Unlike taxing them less, simply paying people more puts a burden on their employers. It forces businesses on the edge, out of business and puts people out of work. And makes businesses not on the edge, less competitive, selling less and needing less people. Putting those people out of work as well.

It damages our exports and encourages imports of cheaper goods. It's not a sustainable solution at all.
 
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