Var debate 2019/20

[NoApologiesForBeingSpurs]

Just go away

Yawn......

Sorry you feel that way

With all due respect - that isn't what has pissed people off. I suspect most can accept there is some grey area around the handball rule, but it's not that. It's that the VAR process involved not showing the replay that made it clear it had hit the arm - and thus the referee did not make his decision on the basis you outline, but on one where he wasn't sure it hit the arm at all - indeed he indicated that it had hit the hip.

There's a big difference between a judgement call we can argue about and the referee not being given the replays he's supposed to have to make that decision. That's what stinks. Especially so given UEFA are trying to throw the ref under a bus with their statement, which is totally contradictory to what we all saw.

I do agree with you if the question the ref was considering was did it touch his hand. I personally thought all the angles showed it touched the hand, the bit I don't know is what did the ref mean by that hip gesture? If he knew it had touched the hand and felt that he didn't control it with his hand then the only decision to make was whether he scored with his hand.

For that decision the angle that he was being shown made it clear that he scored with his hip so that 'could' be why he was viewing that angle and why he made the hip gesture. He could have been saying that he scored with the hip, not that it only touched his hip which is what most assumed (myself included until this thread got me thinking about it).

You then get back to the age old accountability argument: if refs explained their decisions and thought processes we would know and possibly understand. They don't so we don't.

I just wanted to make that point but as a couple of people made it clear they don't want me here I'll stay away now.

 

[levets]

Also 4 goals scored first half. Spurs lad down injured twice.......soooo obviously 3 minutes added time WTF. We were robbed of at least 3 minutes there!

Five goals

 

[aguerooooo]

That thrill when a last minute goal in a vitally important match will never be quite the same Just think Gillingham and QPR The feeling of utter joy hugging total strangers, gone.as we all stand looking moronically looking at the linesman then the ref and finally the board First booking and sending off players for celebrating and now this lets take all the fun FFS Instead of admiring the football it will be aboutVAR and the ref And even with VAR AS proved last night he still fucked up

 

[levets]

You would expect referees to go through images systematically, rather like the cricket umpires do, and then rule evidence out/in as they deem fit. Ultimately, they can then decide on the most convincing images and watch those until satisfied. Currently, however, it looks ad hoc and, thus, mistakes are inevitable.

Saying that all the images were available is certainly not the same as saying the referee viewed all the images available.

Saying that all the images were available is certainly not the same as saying the referee viewed all the images available.
=======
Exactly, so shouldn’t the VAR official be saying to the ref... ‘ I think you really need to look at the next camera angle, it is perhaps more conclusive’.
This is where it becomes open to criticism of being crooked, biased whatever.

 

[Marvin]

I hope you don't mind me throwing my thoughts in

With the handball last night and the current UEFA interpretation there seem to be a few key elements (I'll use hand to mean hand or arm for ease and we all know it touched his hand so no point in discussing that element!):
1. Was the hand in a position that increased the player's silhouette - his elbow was tucked in and his hand across his body so no
2. In the act of scoring did the touch on the hand control the ball - it glanced off his hand onto his hip so he didn't control it. I think this is the greyest area though: if it came off his hand, fell to his feet and he kicked in in then I would say that is controlling it whereas the flight of the ball barely changing and hitting his thigh 4 inches away?? Doesn't sound like 'controlling it' to me. If it was 'benefited' from contact with the hand then it would be a yes: the slight change in direction of the ball resulted in the contact with the hip taking the ball into the net.
3. Did he score directly from the hand - no because it went in off his thigh/hip

So there is a tiny grey area that is presumably down to interpretation and I hope that marginal decision went down to going with the ref's on field decision. As he had awarded the goal they stuck with that decision but if he had given it as handball that would have stood.

It definitely wasn't clear and obvious though, however that term seems to be arbitrarily invoked by the VAR officials. Every Spurs and neutral I've spoken to thought that Fernandinho's elbow to Kane's head last week was clear and obvious but they didn't bother with that at all.

So across the two legs VAR got the Rose handball and the Aguero offside right, the Fernandinho elbow wrong and the Llorente handball probably/possibly right. If VAR hadn't have been used then you wouldn't have got a penalty but Sterling's goal would have stood as those two reversed the on field decisions and the other two would be no change. So with VAR you (City) benefited once and lost out once. As you didn't score the penalty that made the difference in the end result but is VAR to blame, Aguero for a tame penalty or Lloris for a decent save?

I do feel for you though. I just assumed that every VAR decision would go against us as Spurs have missed out on results in countless big matches over the last decade where VAR would have been in our favour (especially against Arsenal and Chelsea). It seemed like sod's law that it coming in would only rule against us: as it did for the Rose handball which I thought would just be the first of many.

Anyway, as I said in the post match thread yesterday, best of luck for the rest of the season. Do NOT let the scousers win the league!!

Thanks for the comments.

I am usually one of the first to argue about refereeing decisions, but don't have the energy to review them intently. I have seen them. Eventually I watched them. In my opinion they are both very marginal and you just have to accept the ref's decision. I believe in the integrity of the competition, I don't believe in conspiracy theory. The process is being criticised because he didn't appear to review Llorente's goal from all angles but he's got a minute to do it.

I think they will improve with the technology but I do not agree with VAR as it is. The goal line technology is wonderful, but VAR can not work instantly, or near instantly and damages the game with the interruption. It's OK if it's someone else's game and you're watching but if its your team and then you have to check the referee's reactions before celebrating, I think that reduces the fun.

Mind you I guess you enjoyed the game hugely so my argument about taking joy out of the game might be exaggerated. Not all decisions go to VAR, and often it will work well.

My main concern now is obviously with the league. I've been saying it's 50/50 with Liverpool for some time. We have it on our hands but our fixtures look much more difficult. I think we are two games from having one hand on the title. It could, if we respond well to the defeat work in our favour but it could also derail us. There's no way of knowing until we play the game on Saturday.

I am relieved the fear factor of away goals has gone. That really scared me every time you attacked and probably unsettled City. We defended much better in the 2nd half.

Some fans are complaining, but we had 180 minutes to win that tie, and couldn't do it so you make the most of your opportunity.

 

[davek1808]

Saying that all the images were available is certainly not the same as saying the referee viewed all the images available.
=======
Exactly, so shouldn’t the VAR official be saying to the ref... ‘ I think you really need to look at the next camera angle, it is perhaps more conclusive’.
This is where it becomes open to criticism of being crooked, biased whatever.

Exactly everything can be manipulated to look a certain way if your not seeing the whole picture

 

[levets]

can someone advise how VAR is applied, did the ref last night ask for VAR help on the 5th goal or was he advised through his ear piece that he should have another look.

He didn’t have a look, he was advised. Why did we not see a replay, the blue lines. Sergio was not ‘seeking to gain an advantage’... he gained no advantage, he eas coming back onside. Erickson played the ball deliberately, Bernardo did not, goal should have stood for me.

 

[davek1808]

Is it true that only ferdinando on bt said it was hand ball ?

 

[Pablo ZZZ Peroni]

Is it true that only ferdinando on bt said it was hand ball ?

Ferdinand and Lescott.

Ferdinand got it spot on and called out the "skin ripple" on the arm which was so indicative the ball had hit his arm. He thought it was handball.

 

[mosssideblue]

Its not VAR that is the joke, but its implementation

 

[Mid Wales blue]

Not sure what it is now but it used to 1080i (interlaced) or 4ki at 50 hz.
Your tv or box changes it to whatever your tv is eg 4k p (progressive) so reduces 50 hz to 25 fps. then your brain changes those individual frames into continuous video.

Cameras can obviously record events at 4k or higher and can generate higher frame rates but transmitting them to your tv at higher frame rates is the problem.

That’s the problem, my brain won’t change them properly!
Always had that problem.
8-(

 

[lasereyes]

I hope you don't mind me throwing my thoughts in

With the handball last night and the current UEFA interpretation there seem to be a few key elements (I'll use hand to mean hand or arm for ease and we all know it touched his hand so no point in discussing that element!):
1. Was the hand in a position that increased the player's silhouette - his elbow was tucked in and his hand across his body so no
2. In the act of scoring did the touch on the hand control the ball - it glanced off his hand onto his hip so he didn't control it. I think this is the greyest area though: if it came off his hand, fell to his feet and he kicked in in then I would say that is controlling it whereas the flight of the ball barely changing and hitting his thigh 4 inches away?? Doesn't sound like 'controlling it' to me. If it was 'benefited' from contact with the hand then it would be a yes: the slight change in direction of the ball resulted in the contact with the hip taking the ball into the net.
3. Did he score directly from the hand - no because it went in off his thigh/hip

So there is a tiny grey area that is presumably down to interpretation and I hope that marginal decision went down to going with the ref's on field decision. As he had awarded the goal they stuck with that decision but if he had given it as handball that would have stood.

It definitely wasn't clear and obvious though, however that term seems to be arbitrarily invoked by the VAR officials. Every Spurs and neutral I've spoken to thought that Fernandinho's elbow to Kane's head last week was clear and obvious but they didn't bother with that at all.

So across the two legs VAR got the Rose handball and the Aguero offside right, the Fernandinho elbow wrong and the Llorente handball probably/possibly right. If VAR hadn't have been used then you wouldn't have got a penalty but Sterling's goal would have stood as those two reversed the on field decisions and the other two would be no change. So with VAR you (City) benefited once and lost out once. As you didn't score the penalty that made the difference in the end result but is VAR to blame, Aguero for a tame penalty or Lloris for a decent save?

I do feel for you though. I just assumed that every VAR decision would go against us as Spurs have missed out on results in countless big matches over the last decade where VAR would have been in our favour (especially against Arsenal and Chelsea). It seemed like sod's law that it coming in would only rule against us: as it did for the Rose handball which I thought would just be the first of many.

Anyway, as I said in the post match thread yesterday, best of luck for the rest of the season. Do NOT let the scousers win the league!!

Leaving aside your very one-eyed description of the Llorente handball, you can only be auditioning for a stand-up comedian role with the bolded. Presumably you didn't see:
- 2015 game with City where you benefitted from 2 blatant offside, the first of which was close to 2 yards
- 2016 game when you won courtesy of a penalty that hit Raheem on the back
- Jan 2017 game when Sterling was pushed in the penalty area as he was about to slot the winning goal
- Dec 2017 game when Kane and Dele Alli both escaped red cards for leg-breaking tackles

Getting diddled against Spurs has become an annual event for us like Christmas or the Trooping of the Colour. So take your fact-free post and fuck off back to your shiny new stadium.

 

[Barcon]

Also 4 goals scored first half. Spurs lad down injured twice.......soooo obviously 3 minutes added time WTF. We were robbed of at least 3 minutes there!

I timed Sissoko (I think it was) on the deck. Minimum of 4 mins plus 2 1/.2 minutes for goals. Throw in the obligatory 1min that seems to be added regardless and you have at least 7 minutes.

 

[Saddleworth2]

A sport like cricket can have a proper system for technology usage but a truly Global sport with billions in revenue can't come up with a uniform, controversy free system.

Thank God there was no VAR when Aguerooo happened.

you are 100% correct there.

 

[jimmygrimblesboots]

Apparently their is another angle which confirms the Spurs donkey moved his elbow towards the ball which direted onto his hip and into the goal , the referee was not shown this angle , and i certainly havent seen this view in any media outlets , it appears we have been stitched up by UEFA yet again , f*ck their competition they are a corrupt organisation who just look after themsleves and the 'istree clubs.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Saying that all the images were available is certainly not the same as saying the referee viewed all the images available.
=======
Exactly, so shouldn’t the VAR official be saying to the ref... ‘ I think you really need to look at the next camera angle, it is perhaps more conclusive’.
This is where it becomes open to criticism of being crooked, biased whatever.

referees routinely ask for every angle multiple times in RU so they come to a correct decision. All of this is played out on big screens and the ref is miked as is the 4th official so you can here what they are saying. There is no hiding place. Why not do the same in football. oh wait........

 

[Palerider]

VAR is for television and the jobsworths. For most of us football is the passion of the moment not some sterile perfection. Hands up anyone who saw Llorentes hand ball or Agueros offside. Both sets of fans had finished celebrating by the time the VAR logo was shown. Offside was brought in to avoid goal hanging, hand ball is a simple rule that states only the keeper can use his hands and only in the area. Both VAR interventions were silly, men in suits type decisions. We even had a 'penalty check' when I don't think anyone in the ground knew at which end!.

 

[therealsvenn]

Conclusive ....

 

[cleavers]

That thrill when a last minute goal in a vitally important match will never be quite the same Just think Gillingham and QPR The feeling of utter joy hugging total strangers, gone.

It all happened just like that again last night, the difference being it was ended (for us) prematurely (well not early enough really), and then ensued in the away section.

 

[Dreadzone]

Conclusive ....

I feel sick! :o(