Var debate 2019/20

[Gazza]

Just a side note - has anyone seen a VAR picture of Liverpool's second goal against us yet, does one exist?

 

[Rammy Blue]

Just a side note - has anyone seen a VAR picture of Liverpool's second goal against us yet, does one exist?

Lol. Think you know the answer to that one.

 

[the talisman]

I’m at a loss how anyone can watch that handball by AA and come to any other conclusion than the league is being manipulated in favour of the red dippers.
We’ve had numerous onfield decisions like that over the years, especially at old trafford and anfield so it wasn’t a shock when the ref waved play on. It could’ve been a mistake or maybe refs are intimidated at those grounds, either way it happens.
But the fact that someone viewed replays checking for a foul and decided it was fine, and then decided it was ok for a handball to start a goal scoring move can only be explained by cheating.

 

[SilverFox2]

I was originally an advocate of VAR, as I felt that it would reduce the extent to which officials could influence a game as their decisions would face greater scrutiny. Sadly, it seems to have had the opposite effect so far.

I thought much the same but both depend on fair minded officialdom that allow mistakes to be rectified.
Sadly, the brazen way that var is used confirms our worst suspicions and has simply hardened my suspicions into evidence.

 

[BlueHammer85]

I was originally an advocate of VAR, as I felt that it would reduce the extent to which officials could influence a game as their decisions would face greater scrutiny. Sadly, it seems to have had the opposite effect so far.

Ok Ric, you seem to be the most balanced and rational on this. Do you believe -

1. VAR is designed to manipulate Liverpool winning the title this season ?

2. Scrapping VAR and going back to original officiating would be the right step ?

 

[Ric]

Ok Ric, you seem to be the most balanced and rational on this. Do you believe -

1. VAR is designed to manipulate Liverpool winning the title this season ?

2. Scrapping VAR and going back to original officiating would be the right step ?

1) No
2) Yes

 

[BlueHammer85]

1) No
2) Yes

on 2) going back to the old officiating would be a huge backwards step, could you imagine the uproar when Kane/Salah does a ridicolous dive with ZERO contact and wins a penalty (That couldn't happen now) could you imagine the uproar when Rashford/Mane are MILES offside and the goal is given (That couldn't happen now) knowing we have technological help that could have told the officials - at least with VAR we have a fighting chance of steady improvements, over time it has a chance to become more transparent - going back to how it was would be chaotic, back to some crazy decisions (look at the ref giving Gazzaniga a free kick in his favour when he kung fu kicked Alonso! ) the speed and cheating of the game had become to much for refs.
VAR is far far from perfect but we have the chance to make painful progress to get it better, no system will be flawless.

 

[the talisman]

on 2) going back to the old officiating would be a huge backwards step, could you imagine the uproar when Kane/Salah does a ridicolous dive with ZERO contact and wins a penalty (That couldn't happen now) could you imagine the uproar when Rashford/Mane are MILES offside and the goal is given (That couldn't happen now) knowing we have technological help that could have told the officials - at least with VAR we have a fighting chance of steady improvements, over time it has a chance to become more transparent - going back to how it was would be chaotic, back to some crazy decisions (look at the ref giving Gazzaniga a free kick in his favour when he kung fu kicked Alonso! ) the speed and cheating of the game had become to much for refs.
VAR is far far from perfect but we have the chance to make painful progress to get it better, no system will be flawless.

What happened at anfield? TAA watched the ball onto his arm, he even stuck his arm out to stop the ball.
Look, VAR has been introduced in many countries so obviously it wasn’t brought in to ensure a lfc league win.
It certainly has not been used in a impartial way though.

 

[danielwood5]

Far easier for corruption to exist without VAR - the ref can just point to the spot whenever he wants, the lino can flag whenever he wants - no need for an explanation, no reviews for anyone - officials decision and that’s it. That simply is the easiest way for corruption to exist - I’m sure I’ll be called a troll though for pointing this simple fact out.

I agree and I think that's why most people are so unhappy with VAR, it was sold to us as a tool to stop referee mistakes (or corruption or bias depending on what you believe) from affecting the outcome of games but it hasn't worked that way so far.
I appreciate that you have a different view (that may change after you've played Liverpool though!) and in some ways I agree with you about VAR, it could have been a great tool to level the playing field for all teams, I'd have loved to have seen how well West Ham could do if they weren't on the end of so many bad decisions but that isn't how VAR is being used in this country.
All that seems to have happened is that they've added a new level of messing about with offsides which isn't particularly accurate and broken the handball rules. Both of these changes can be easily manipulated if desired to get a particular outcome if you go down the conspiracy route and both changes have moved the laws away from what they were originally intended to do (stop players from 'goal hanging' and deliberately handling the ball). Both changes in the law have made the game infinitely less enjoyable for the fans and arguably unfair to the players (see West Ham's recent disallowed goal for example)
VAR has been an utter shambles and has led to me watching hardly any games this year and I gave my season card away before Christmas because of it and that was mainly down to three games this season.
The first game was the Spurs one, our second game of the season. We not only had a winning goal chalked off using this new Premier League handball definition but were denied one of the most stonewall penalties I've seen for a long time. None of these decisions were anything particularly out of the ordinary for the referee that day (Michael Oliver, who we'll be revisiting later) as he's generally a coward and is afraid of giving game changing decisions but what did it for me about these decisions is the way they were explained away afterwards. We were told that Rodri dived to try and earn a penalty when he was dragged to the ground by the neck which is a preposterous explanation and that the winning goal was rightly ruled out due to handball. These explanations came from the head of VAR and were so at odds to the laws of the game it beggars belief, the handball decision was actually against IFABs Laws of the Game but now that decision has been made the rest of the league has had to deal with this 'interpretation' too. It also showed that the VAR team were willing to forensically dissect a goal to see if it could be disallowed instead of looking at it and using common sense to decide if it is legitimate or not. They could have perhaps taken into account that Rodri was pushed in the back which caused the ball to possibly brush his arm but then that's not something written in black and white in the VAR rulebook so it was ignored by Stockley Park.
The second game was the Liverpool one (surprise, surprise!). That was a ridiculously one sided refereeing performance but again it's nothing particularly unexpected when playing Liverpool at Anfield, especially with the particular referee involved (Michael Oliver, I told you we'd be revisiting this clown!). In a game that had a blatant handball ignored, the world's quickest marginal offside review, ignored penalty box pushes and the usual Liverpool diving, kicking and elbowing antics we were told after the game that all decisions were reviewed by VAR and were found to be correct! This is what pushed me over the edge, I expect to be on the poor end of decisions when playing Liverpool but to then be told that after the game (by the head of VAR no less!) was just a joke. Again, like the Spurs game, it wasn't the actual decisions that ruined the game it was that we were told that this technology (that has done nothing but disrupt games and stop people from celebrating goals) got everything right when it clearly didn't. If the people running it aren't willing to admit that they have made mistakes then how are they going to learn and improve the system? Or are they just lying with these explanations to cover their own backs? These statements don't help to play down the wild conspiracy theories especially when they contradict themselves a week later when a different team is playing.
The last game that killed off any interest in top level football was our game against Wolves. The first incident was when we were awarded a penalty when Mahrez had his foot stood on. That was a penalty but if he hadn't thrown himself over then it wouldn't have been awarded, this is where VAR should be used, the operator should have seen the ball ball go out of play and when the referee gave a goal kick they should have said in his ear 'it looks like the players foot was stood on so you my want to review this on the monitor' this didn't happen and so players are forced to drop to the floor to get a decision. Later on in the game Mendy was fouled by a Wolves player who then got the ball and created their equalising goal. Ignoring the rights or wrongs of Mendy's play in this instance the fact is that this was a foul but because he didn't flop to the floor the referee does nothing and VAR stays silent. You've asserted many times that VAR means that players aren't diving as much this season (although Leicester fans my disagree after having their points given to Liverpool after a blatant dive) I don't think it has, players now are just becoming better at initiating contact and then going down so diving has actually increased due to VAR. This is why I'm now uninterested in football, the game his become too 'European' for me with the teams that are the best at 'gamesmanship' getting all the advantages and I've got no time for football played that way.
In short, I don't think there is a vast conspiracy against City I just think the way VAR is set up rewards cheating rather than fair play and this isn't helped by referees being too scared to referee all teams to the same standards for whatever reason you want to believe (pressure from PGMOL, the Premier League, the press, a particularly militant and vocal fan base, betting syndicates, inherent bias, whatever).

 

[Copper]

I agree and I think that's why most people are so unhappy with VAR, it was sold to us as a tool to stop referee mistakes (or corruption or bias depending on what you believe) from affecting the outcome of games but it hasn't worked that way so far.
I appreciate that you have a different view (that may change after you've played Liverpool though!) and in some ways I agree with you about VAR, it could have been a great tool to level the playing field for all teams, I'd have loved to have seen how well West Ham could do if they weren't on the end of so many bad decisions but that isn't how VAR is being used in this country.
All that seems to have happened is that they've added a new level of messing about with offsides which isn't particularly accurate and broken the handball rules. Both of these changes can be easily manipulated if desired to get a particular outcome if you go down the conspiracy route and both changes have moved the laws away from what they were originally intended to do (stop players from 'goal hanging' and deliberately handling the ball). Both changes in the law have made the game infinitely less enjoyable for the fans and arguably unfair to the players (see West Ham's recent disallowed goal for example)
VAR has been an utter shambles and has led to me watching hardly any games this year and I gave my season card away before Christmas because of it and that was mainly down to three games this season.
The first game was the Spurs one, our second game of the season. We not only had a winning goal chalked off using this new Premier League handball definition but were denied one of the most stonewall penalties I've seen for a long time. None of these decisions were anything particularly out of the ordinary for the referee that day (Michael Oliver, who we'll be revisiting later) as he's generally a coward and is afraid of giving game changing decisions but what did it for me about these decisions is the way they were explained away afterwards. We were told that Rodri dived to try and earn a penalty when he was dragged to the ground by the neck which is a preposterous explanation and that the winning goal was rightly ruled out due to handball. These explanations came from the head of VAR and were so at odds to the laws of the game it beggars belief, the handball decision was actually against IFABs Laws of the Game but now that decision has been made the rest of the league has had to deal with this 'interpretation' too. It also showed that the VAR team were willing to forensically dissect a goal to see if it could be disallowed instead of looking at it and using common sense to decide if it is legitimate or not. They could have perhaps taken into account that Rodri was pushed in the back which caused the ball to possibly brush his arm but then that's not something written in black and white in the VAR rulebook so it was ignored by Stockley Park.
The second game was the Liverpool one (surprise, surprise!). That was a ridiculously one sided refereeing performance but again it's nothing particularly unexpected when playing Liverpool at Anfield, especially with the particular referee involved (Michael Oliver, I told you we'd be revisiting this clown!). In a game that had a blatant handball ignored, the world's quickest marginal offside review, ignored penalty box pushes and the usual Liverpool diving, kicking and elbowing antics we were told after the game that all decisions were reviewed by VAR and were found to be correct! This is what pushed me over the edge, I expect to be on the poor end of decisions when playing Liverpool but to then be told that after the game (by the head of VAR no less!) was just a joke. Again, like the Spurs game, it wasn't the actual decisions that ruined the game it was that we were told that this technology (that has done nothing but disrupt games and stop people from celebrating goals) got everything right when it clearly didn't. If the people running it aren't willing to admit that they have made mistakes then how are they going to learn and improve the system? Or are they just lying with these explanations to cover their own backs? These statements don't help to play down the wild conspiracy theories especially when they contradict themselves a week later when a different team is playing.
The last game that killed off any interest in top level football was our game against Wolves. The first incident was when we were awarded a penalty when Mahrez had his foot stood on. That was a penalty but if he hadn't thrown himself over then it wouldn't have been awarded, this is where VAR should be used, the operator should have seen the ball ball go out of play and when the referee gave a goal kick they should have said in his ear 'it looks like the players foot was stood on so you my want to review this on the monitor' this didn't happen and so players are forced to drop to the floor to get a decision. Later on in the game Mendy was fouled by a Wolves player who then got the ball and created their equalising goal. Ignoring the rights or wrongs of Mendy's play in this instance the fact is that this was a foul but because he didn't flop to the floor the referee does nothing and VAR stays silent. You've asserted many times that VAR means that players aren't diving as much this season (although Leicester fans my disagree after having their points given to Liverpool after a blatant dive) I don't think it has, players now are just becoming better at initiating contact and then going down so diving has actually increased due to VAR. This is why I'm now uninterested in football, the game his become too 'European' for me with the teams that are the best at 'gamesmanship' getting all the advantages and I've got no time for football played that way.
In short, I don't think there is a vast conspiracy against City I just think the way VAR is set up rewards cheating rather than fair play and this isn't helped by referees being too scared to referee all teams to the same standards for whatever reason you want to believe (pressure from PGMOL, the Premier League, the press, a particularly militant and vocal fan base, betting syndicates, inherent bias, whatever).

I'm sorry, but that is so hypocritical (bolded bits). That is what happened to Mane vs Leicester, yet Mane's is a clear dive, and Mahrez's isn't? Both of them had their foot stood on.

It is double standards like this that reduce the credibility of City fans' argument.