Var debate 2019/20

[creditunionhero]

Is this "copper" that has posted recently, actually employed by merkyside police, if so, how is the investigation going? Oh yes all that video evidence and still no arrests.

 

[the-ecstacy-of-eight]

Has anybody ever seen the film "The Hard Word"? Aussie film with Guy Pearce in it. There's a song sung in it that describes our newest (at time of writing) scouse member to a tee ;)

 

[Whymewhynot]

I don’t really pay too much attention to the media, so I can’t really comment on that, but what I can say is that your theory that Liverpool and City are treated differently by the referees/VAR is completely incorrect. I have already listed a vast number of decisions that didn’t go our way, but as usual, they’ve been swept under the carpet because they don’t fit the narrative.

It goes hand in hand though. The media is a massive influence. I have never known var to reach decisions as fast as it does when it involves Liverpool. The first two goals against us should have been scrutinised to the finest detail, like it does every other team. For some reason it doesn’t for you guys. Getting a winning penalty in a game like Leicester with the slightest bit of contact (contact doesn’t mean foul) yet when Mane two hand shoves Sterling in the exact same area of the pitch it’s not looked at/given? I’ve said it to your many other Norwegian friends that join, it’s a combination of things why city struggle to accept your success. Var/luck/the denial and delusion from your fans and a touch of just being bitter that you’ve been better. Also the fact you come on our forum in your numbers when no fucker was in sight before then.

 

[55yr old teenager]

I don’t really pay too much attention to the media, so I can’t really comment on that, but what I can say is that your theory that Liverpool and City are treated differently by the referees/VAR is completely incorrect. I have already listed a vast number of decisions that didn’t go our way, but as usual, they’ve been swept under the carpet because they don’t fit the narrative.

You need to take your rose tinted glasses off mate and wake and smell the coffee

 

[BlueHammer85]

For me I think that the way that VAR has been set up in this country rewards cheating, if you want to get a decision now from the referee or VAR a player has to throw themselves over and roll around a bit. VAR isn't used to see if an incident is a foul or not they just seem to look to see if there was 'contact' or not and go off that. Unfortunately for the rest of the league no team over the last 6 or 7 years has cheated as consistently and successfully as Liverpool. If it's not Salah, Mane, Firmino, Henderson, Milner, etc diving for pens and freekicks it's Alexander-Arnold, Robertson, Henderson, Milner, etc with their pulling, holding, sly kicks and racking their studs down the back of players ankles on an incredibly regular basis, your team cheats like no other before them in the history of the English game. I think this tendency to cheat is perfect for the way that VAR is set up and has won your team more points than you have deserved this year.

It's not just because of the marginal decisions that go your way on a much more regular basis than they do anyone else in the league it's also the fact that you don't have to worry about your players getting cards and they therefore don't serve any suspensions. If you can explain why Robertson hasn't already served at least one ban simply for accumulating yellows I'd love to hear it. The man is an utter coward and a disgrace to the game, his favourite pastime of pushing opposition players into advertising hoardings is just plain despicable. How many of your other players have been or are close to suspension from getting five yellows? I've no idea but I do know that if they played for 18 of the other teams in the league most of them would be, particularly Van Dyke, Alexander-Arnold and Henderson. In our games against Utd I would have been utterly mortified if our players had behaved the way yours did in your game against Everton, that overtook the infamous Arsenal v Utd game as the most bent game I'd ever seen in this country and how none of your players got away without a ban absolutely baffles me.

The advantage you have that most other teams dont is that the press is full of your ex players and supporters who either explain away your team's transgressions or make a big deal of any marginal decision that goes against you. This then makes the cowards that referee the game too scared to give a decision against you and generally give any marginal decision your way in games as they don't want to be attacked by your cheerleaders in the press. These poor decisions are then 'explained' to be correct by idiots who's job it is to make it look like VAR is great and working perfectly. We're talking about two teams that were separated by a point the season before and so marginal decisions going one way the majority of the time can and will make a big difference to not only points gained but to the form and morale of the players in each team. This is especially true when the people in charge of the laws of the game explain away wrong decisions against one team as being definitively correct, for example when Rodri was hauled to the ground by his neck or when a ball is blatantly handled by an opposition defender in their own box. This can be a little dispiriting for not only the players but the fans too, especially when their main opponents that season are given points from blatant dives and are seemingly allowed to handle the ball, pull opposition players and just generally get away with being snidey thugs with a large measure of impunity.

I don't particularly think there's a big conspiracy to win the league for you (although I'm sure it will help the Premier Leagues strategic plan of getting a new name on the trophy every few years and will certainly help with 'growing the brand' in Ireland, Scandinavia and the Far East). I just think it's a combination of a new system that rewards cheating, a very good team who happened to have mastered the art of cheating, a compliant press corps and a body of referees who are either unwilling or unable to govern your games in a fair and even handed way (the only Premier League game of yours I've seen where you were playing to the same rules as your opposition was against Utd, I'm not saying it was a good refereeing performance but he at least made both teams play to the same laws) that makes it look like a conspiracy.

Far easier for corruption to exist without VAR - the ref can just point to the spot whenever he wants, the lino can flag whenever he wants - no need for an explanation, no reviews for anyone - officials decision and that’s it. That simply is the easiest way for corruption to exist - I’m sure I’ll be called a troll though for pointing this simple fact out.

 

[Ric]

Far easier for corruption to exits without VAR - the ref can just point to the spot whenever he wants, the lino can flag whenever he wants - no need for an explanation, no reviews for anyone - officials decision and that’s it. That simply is the easiest way for corruption to exist - I’m sure I’ll be called a troll though for pointing this simple fact out.

I was originally an advocate of VAR, as I felt that it would reduce the extent to which officials could influence a game as their decisions would face greater scrutiny. Sadly, it seems to have had the opposite effect so far.

 

[the-ecstacy-of-eight]

Far easier for corruption to exist without VAR - the ref can just point to the spot whenever he wants, the lino can flag whenever he wants - no need for an explanation, no reviews for anyone - officials decision and that’s it. That simply is the easiest way for corruption to exist - I’m sure I’ll be called a troll though for pointing this simple fact out.

Far better for effective corruption to exist WITH VAR - the ref can just put a finger to his ear, wait a few seconds and say VAR has checked it and the decision is whatever we want it to be (after the incident many media figures and ex-refs. will agree that VAR got it correct despite what the video evidence shows and their words will be echoed by the spoon-fed masses). Equally the ref. can also point to the spot (or equally not point to the spot) whenever he wants and as long as there is some sort of contact the VAR team and the media will agree that the ref got the call correct (or equally argue that VAR has decided that there wasn't enough contact and the ref. called it correctly again, which will again be clarified by the "respected voices of the media"). Instead of the linos flagging whenever they want, VAR can now be pulled back/pushed forward a few frames (I mean, why not, the point at which the pass is made is an estimation as are the drawn lines, but the end result is then calculated to the mm) and again the video evidence fits the desired decision - no need for an explanation - VAR has decided and what's more, there are pictures to "prove" it, so and that’s it.

That simply is the most effective way for corruption to exist; a combination of the tried and tested "bent officials trick" (which doesn't really allow for the fact that the other team might just be too good), with the added tool of VAR to aid and abet where necessary. I’m sure I’ll be called a deranged conspiracy theorist for pointing this simple fact out.

 

[Bluearmy]

If there was no var then Raheem goal would have stood so we probably would have

linesman gave it offside originally.

 

[alexmcity]

I have already listed a vast number of decisions that didn’t go our way, but as usual, they’ve been swept under the carpet because they don’t fit the narrative.

Can you list any favourable calls for City which influenced the final result? There's the crucial difference between both teams: Liverpool have had plenty of favourable decisions whereas City have had such decisions recently after the point difference has already become huge.

Without VAR the difference would have been 7 pts and that's not insurmountable for a team like City at all, given you are coming to the Etihad. Referees have had big influence on this season.

 

[wattle]

linesman gave it offside originally.

I’m 99.9% sure he didn’t otherwise we wouldn’t have been going mental for 3 minutes

 

[Gazza]

Just a side note - has anyone seen a VAR picture of Liverpool's second goal against us yet, does one exist?

 

[Rammy Blue]

Just a side note - has anyone seen a VAR picture of Liverpool's second goal against us yet, does one exist?

Lol. Think you know the answer to that one.

 

[the talisman]

I’m at a loss how anyone can watch that handball by AA and come to any other conclusion than the league is being manipulated in favour of the red dippers.
We’ve had numerous onfield decisions like that over the years, especially at old trafford and anfield so it wasn’t a shock when the ref waved play on. It could’ve been a mistake or maybe refs are intimidated at those grounds, either way it happens.
But the fact that someone viewed replays checking for a foul and decided it was fine, and then decided it was ok for a handball to start a goal scoring move can only be explained by cheating.

 

[SilverFox2]

I was originally an advocate of VAR, as I felt that it would reduce the extent to which officials could influence a game as their decisions would face greater scrutiny. Sadly, it seems to have had the opposite effect so far.

I thought much the same but both depend on fair minded officialdom that allow mistakes to be rectified.
Sadly, the brazen way that var is used confirms our worst suspicions and has simply hardened my suspicions into evidence.

 

[BlueHammer85]

I was originally an advocate of VAR, as I felt that it would reduce the extent to which officials could influence a game as their decisions would face greater scrutiny. Sadly, it seems to have had the opposite effect so far.

Ok Ric, you seem to be the most balanced and rational on this. Do you believe -

1. VAR is designed to manipulate Liverpool winning the title this season ?

2. Scrapping VAR and going back to original officiating would be the right step ?

 

[Ric]

Ok Ric, you seem to be the most balanced and rational on this. Do you believe -

1. VAR is designed to manipulate Liverpool winning the title this season ?

2. Scrapping VAR and going back to original officiating would be the right step ?

1) No
2) Yes

 

[BlueHammer85]

1) No
2) Yes

on 2) going back to the old officiating would be a huge backwards step, could you imagine the uproar when Kane/Salah does a ridicolous dive with ZERO contact and wins a penalty (That couldn't happen now) could you imagine the uproar when Rashford/Mane are MILES offside and the goal is given (That couldn't happen now) knowing we have technological help that could have told the officials - at least with VAR we have a fighting chance of steady improvements, over time it has a chance to become more transparent - going back to how it was would be chaotic, back to some crazy decisions (look at the ref giving Gazzaniga a free kick in his favour when he kung fu kicked Alonso! ) the speed and cheating of the game had become to much for refs.
VAR is far far from perfect but we have the chance to make painful progress to get it better, no system will be flawless.

 

[the talisman]

on 2) going back to the old officiating would be a huge backwards step, could you imagine the uproar when Kane/Salah does a ridicolous dive with ZERO contact and wins a penalty (That couldn't happen now) could you imagine the uproar when Rashford/Mane are MILES offside and the goal is given (That couldn't happen now) knowing we have technological help that could have told the officials - at least with VAR we have a fighting chance of steady improvements, over time it has a chance to become more transparent - going back to how it was would be chaotic, back to some crazy decisions (look at the ref giving Gazzaniga a free kick in his favour when he kung fu kicked Alonso! ) the speed and cheating of the game had become to much for refs.
VAR is far far from perfect but we have the chance to make painful progress to get it better, no system will be flawless.

What happened at anfield? TAA watched the ball onto his arm, he even stuck his arm out to stop the ball.
Look, VAR has been introduced in many countries so obviously it wasn’t brought in to ensure a lfc league win.
It certainly has not been used in a impartial way though.

 

[danielwood5]

Far easier for corruption to exist without VAR - the ref can just point to the spot whenever he wants, the lino can flag whenever he wants - no need for an explanation, no reviews for anyone - officials decision and that’s it. That simply is the easiest way for corruption to exist - I’m sure I’ll be called a troll though for pointing this simple fact out.

I agree and I think that's why most people are so unhappy with VAR, it was sold to us as a tool to stop referee mistakes (or corruption or bias depending on what you believe) from affecting the outcome of games but it hasn't worked that way so far.
I appreciate that you have a different view (that may change after you've played Liverpool though!) and in some ways I agree with you about VAR, it could have been a great tool to level the playing field for all teams, I'd have loved to have seen how well West Ham could do if they weren't on the end of so many bad decisions but that isn't how VAR is being used in this country.
All that seems to have happened is that they've added a new level of messing about with offsides which isn't particularly accurate and broken the handball rules. Both of these changes can be easily manipulated if desired to get a particular outcome if you go down the conspiracy route and both changes have moved the laws away from what they were originally intended to do (stop players from 'goal hanging' and deliberately handling the ball). Both changes in the law have made the game infinitely less enjoyable for the fans and arguably unfair to the players (see West Ham's recent disallowed goal for example)
VAR has been an utter shambles and has led to me watching hardly any games this year and I gave my season card away before Christmas because of it and that was mainly down to three games this season.
The first game was the Spurs one, our second game of the season. We not only had a winning goal chalked off using this new Premier League handball definition but were denied one of the most stonewall penalties I've seen for a long time. None of these decisions were anything particularly out of the ordinary for the referee that day (Michael Oliver, who we'll be revisiting later) as he's generally a coward and is afraid of giving game changing decisions but what did it for me about these decisions is the way they were explained away afterwards. We were told that Rodri dived to try and earn a penalty when he was dragged to the ground by the neck which is a preposterous explanation and that the winning goal was rightly ruled out due to handball. These explanations came from the head of VAR and were so at odds to the laws of the game it beggars belief, the handball decision was actually against IFABs Laws of the Game but now that decision has been made the rest of the league has had to deal with this 'interpretation' too. It also showed that the VAR team were willing to forensically dissect a goal to see if it could be disallowed instead of looking at it and using common sense to decide if it is legitimate or not. They could have perhaps taken into account that Rodri was pushed in the back which caused the ball to possibly brush his arm but then that's not something written in black and white in the VAR rulebook so it was ignored by Stockley Park.
The second game was the Liverpool one (surprise, surprise!). That was a ridiculously one sided refereeing performance but again it's nothing particularly unexpected when playing Liverpool at Anfield, especially with the particular referee involved (Michael Oliver, I told you we'd be revisiting this clown!). In a game that had a blatant handball ignored, the world's quickest marginal offside review, ignored penalty box pushes and the usual Liverpool diving, kicking and elbowing antics we were told after the game that all decisions were reviewed by VAR and were found to be correct! This is what pushed me over the edge, I expect to be on the poor end of decisions when playing Liverpool but to then be told that after the game (by the head of VAR no less!) was just a joke. Again, like the Spurs game, it wasn't the actual decisions that ruined the game it was that we were told that this technology (that has done nothing but disrupt games and stop people from celebrating goals) got everything right when it clearly didn't. If the people running it aren't willing to admit that they have made mistakes then how are they going to learn and improve the system? Or are they just lying with these explanations to cover their own backs? These statements don't help to play down the wild conspiracy theories especially when they contradict themselves a week later when a different team is playing.
The last game that killed off any interest in top level football was our game against Wolves. The first incident was when we were awarded a penalty when Mahrez had his foot stood on. That was a penalty but if he hadn't thrown himself over then it wouldn't have been awarded, this is where VAR should be used, the operator should have seen the ball ball go out of play and when the referee gave a goal kick they should have said in his ear 'it looks like the players foot was stood on so you my want to review this on the monitor' this didn't happen and so players are forced to drop to the floor to get a decision. Later on in the game Mendy was fouled by a Wolves player who then got the ball and created their equalising goal. Ignoring the rights or wrongs of Mendy's play in this instance the fact is that this was a foul but because he didn't flop to the floor the referee does nothing and VAR stays silent. You've asserted many times that VAR means that players aren't diving as much this season (although Leicester fans my disagree after having their points given to Liverpool after a blatant dive) I don't think it has, players now are just becoming better at initiating contact and then going down so diving has actually increased due to VAR. This is why I'm now uninterested in football, the game his become too 'European' for me with the teams that are the best at 'gamesmanship' getting all the advantages and I've got no time for football played that way.
In short, I don't think there is a vast conspiracy against City I just think the way VAR is set up rewards cheating rather than fair play and this isn't helped by referees being too scared to referee all teams to the same standards for whatever reason you want to believe (pressure from PGMOL, the Premier League, the press, a particularly militant and vocal fan base, betting syndicates, inherent bias, whatever).

 

[Copper]

I agree and I think that's why most people are so unhappy with VAR, it was sold to us as a tool to stop referee mistakes (or corruption or bias depending on what you believe) from affecting the outcome of games but it hasn't worked that way so far.
I appreciate that you have a different view (that may change after you've played Liverpool though!) and in some ways I agree with you about VAR, it could have been a great tool to level the playing field for all teams, I'd have loved to have seen how well West Ham could do if they weren't on the end of so many bad decisions but that isn't how VAR is being used in this country.
All that seems to have happened is that they've added a new level of messing about with offsides which isn't particularly accurate and broken the handball rules. Both of these changes can be easily manipulated if desired to get a particular outcome if you go down the conspiracy route and both changes have moved the laws away from what they were originally intended to do (stop players from 'goal hanging' and deliberately handling the ball). Both changes in the law have made the game infinitely less enjoyable for the fans and arguably unfair to the players (see West Ham's recent disallowed goal for example)
VAR has been an utter shambles and has led to me watching hardly any games this year and I gave my season card away before Christmas because of it and that was mainly down to three games this season.
The first game was the Spurs one, our second game of the season. We not only had a winning goal chalked off using this new Premier League handball definition but were denied one of the most stonewall penalties I've seen for a long time. None of these decisions were anything particularly out of the ordinary for the referee that day (Michael Oliver, who we'll be revisiting later) as he's generally a coward and is afraid of giving game changing decisions but what did it for me about these decisions is the way they were explained away afterwards. We were told that Rodri dived to try and earn a penalty when he was dragged to the ground by the neck which is a preposterous explanation and that the winning goal was rightly ruled out due to handball. These explanations came from the head of VAR and were so at odds to the laws of the game it beggars belief, the handball decision was actually against IFABs Laws of the Game but now that decision has been made the rest of the league has had to deal with this 'interpretation' too. It also showed that the VAR team were willing to forensically dissect a goal to see if it could be disallowed instead of looking at it and using common sense to decide if it is legitimate or not. They could have perhaps taken into account that Rodri was pushed in the back which caused the ball to possibly brush his arm but then that's not something written in black and white in the VAR rulebook so it was ignored by Stockley Park.
The second game was the Liverpool one (surprise, surprise!). That was a ridiculously one sided refereeing performance but again it's nothing particularly unexpected when playing Liverpool at Anfield, especially with the particular referee involved (Michael Oliver, I told you we'd be revisiting this clown!). In a game that had a blatant handball ignored, the world's quickest marginal offside review, ignored penalty box pushes and the usual Liverpool diving, kicking and elbowing antics we were told after the game that all decisions were reviewed by VAR and were found to be correct! This is what pushed me over the edge, I expect to be on the poor end of decisions when playing Liverpool but to then be told that after the game (by the head of VAR no less!) was just a joke. Again, like the Spurs game, it wasn't the actual decisions that ruined the game it was that we were told that this technology (that has done nothing but disrupt games and stop people from celebrating goals) got everything right when it clearly didn't. If the people running it aren't willing to admit that they have made mistakes then how are they going to learn and improve the system? Or are they just lying with these explanations to cover their own backs? These statements don't help to play down the wild conspiracy theories especially when they contradict themselves a week later when a different team is playing.
The last game that killed off any interest in top level football was our game against Wolves. The first incident was when we were awarded a penalty when Mahrez had his foot stood on. That was a penalty but if he hadn't thrown himself over then it wouldn't have been awarded, this is where VAR should be used, the operator should have seen the ball ball go out of play and when the referee gave a goal kick they should have said in his ear 'it looks like the players foot was stood on so you my want to review this on the monitor' this didn't happen and so players are forced to drop to the floor to get a decision. Later on in the game Mendy was fouled by a Wolves player who then got the ball and created their equalising goal. Ignoring the rights or wrongs of Mendy's play in this instance the fact is that this was a foul but because he didn't flop to the floor the referee does nothing and VAR stays silent. You've asserted many times that VAR means that players aren't diving as much this season (although Leicester fans my disagree after having their points given to Liverpool after a blatant dive) I don't think it has, players now are just becoming better at initiating contact and then going down so diving has actually increased due to VAR. This is why I'm now uninterested in football, the game his become too 'European' for me with the teams that are the best at 'gamesmanship' getting all the advantages and I've got no time for football played that way.
In short, I don't think there is a vast conspiracy against City I just think the way VAR is set up rewards cheating rather than fair play and this isn't helped by referees being too scared to referee all teams to the same standards for whatever reason you want to believe (pressure from PGMOL, the Premier League, the press, a particularly militant and vocal fan base, betting syndicates, inherent bias, whatever).

I'm sorry, but that is so hypocritical (bolded bits). That is what happened to Mane vs Leicester, yet Mane's is a clear dive, and Mahrez's isn't? Both of them had their foot stood on.

It is double standards like this that reduce the credibility of City fans' argument.