COVID-19 — Coronavirus

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London up 23 patients to 361 (last wk 312) ventilators up 8 to 65 (last wk 56)

Midlands up 48 patients to 622 (last wk 449) ventilators up 8 to 89 (last wk 70)

Yorks & NE up 85 patients to 999 (last wk 656) ventilators up 5 to 104 (last wk 76)

As you see again big rises but not so much in London. Though that is starting to creep a little.

North West up modest number of 26 to 1244 (last wk 889) ventilators up stayed same at 132 (last wk 104). There are hints here of stabilising, The last 3 days ventilator numbers have been 133 - 132 - 132. And patients 1167 - 1218 - 1244.
 
We carry on as we are till the vaccine , the winter will be very difficu!t , should be easier in the spring

you're the second person to say that without clarifying what 'as we are' means - now? highly localised? or the multi tier thing? all dependent on case rates etc? so if by spring there is no outlook for a vaccine at all, we carry on like this?
 
you're the second person to say that without clarifying what 'as we are' means - now? highly localised? or the multi tier thing? all dependent on case rates etc? so if by spring there is no outlook for a vaccine at all, we carry on like this?
I guess we are basing policy on an asumption based on the best advice of a vaccine at some point. If that changes and vaccination trials fail then policy has to be reassesed and we change direction.
I know we’d all like certainty there can’t be any at this time on best policy based on assumptions based on science.
Whether we are getting best policy is a totally different debate.
 
right, BM virus control group - what happens if we're vaccine-less in the spring and there's no realistic outlook for one? discuss
Unlikely as vaccinations are already taking place in other countries.
 
right, BM virus control group - what happens if we're vaccine-less in the spring and there's no realistic outlook for one? discuss

This is the hardest question.

We do now seem to have a strategy, if unwritten and unclear, it being "Muddle along without killing too many people until a vaccine arrives"

I'm no epidemiologist, or public health expert, but it seems to me that we can't carry on forever if that vaccine doesn't arrive. I'd propose "Very gradually open up and take the awful consequences"

Here goes.

Right now there is a good but not certain prospect of a vaccine being proven effective (not necessarily rolled out) in the next six months. So, we should suppress the virus to as low levels as possible, primarily through huge investment in local test, track and trace (this is actually far cheaper than the economic hit of current mini-lockdowns, and allows a better quality of life).

*If* there is a succession of negative vaccine trial readouts, then we need to accept we can't control the virus in the short term, and gradually open up whilst attempting to limit the damage. Noting that this will kill perhaps a quarter of a million people, so require something like 10 months of deaths at 1000 per day, equivalent to the peak of the first wave (best estimates of herd immunity levels and fatality rates), it is is a very far from trivial challenge. I guess you can envisage a gradual relaxing of restrictions one at a time, perhaps along the lines of
- all remaining educational restrictions lifted
- household mixing relaxed say from 6 to 20 or something
- weddings, funerals relaxed from 15 to 50
- hospitality opening restrictions lifted, but COVID safe measures remain (eg no ordering at bars, limiting occupancy)
etc etc etc until back to close to normal - obviously needs to be thought through properly and prioritised right. Events which put vulnerable at risk need to be the last to be opened up - we want immunity as high as possible in the rest of the population.

Alongside this, you'd need a big testing programme so spikes can be averted, though as immunity levels rise, the likelihood of sudden big outbreaks falls.

I fear that mass stadium events are towards the very bottom of the list, given just how fast the spread could be at a full Etihad.

This herd immunity strategy will not eliminate the virus, just as smallpox was not eliminated before vaccines became available. Infection can be expected to grumble along with sporadic outbreaks. So, some restrictions will likely stay in place for a very long time, or even forever, given just how lethal it is to older and vulnerable groups, and how contagious it is. Eg ongoing very regular testing of care home staff, residents and visitors (IIRC half of our deaths have been from care homes).

Meanwhile, hopefully treatments will improve and bring more options for control eg prophylactic monoclonal antibodies for very vulnerable.

I think the govt should be undertaking this sort of thinking, and doing it publicly, to help build understanding of what is possible and what the consequences of different choices in these circumstances are. It would also help build support for the current approach, by educating as to the implications of other approaches.

As I write this, I realise just how difficult it will be. So fingers crossed for that vaccine.

Whaddaya think? Is there a better way?
 
13972 new cases by date reported today then.
Just over 36000 less than the chuckle brothers had predicted we’d have by October 12th, with their ‘scientific‘ graph the other week. And people wonder why some people are a bit sceptical not that we are following the science but whether we are actually following the right science.
But they said that would be the case if we didn't bring in more restrictions so we will never know because we did bring in restrictions? Apologies if I've completely missed your point its been a long day.
 
If you have a postcode it couldn't be easier.

I tried putting a central Liverpool postcode in to see what it says for tier 3 and the information it gives is no different to us. So it’s not even up to date. I assume it’s reliable for anyone outside of Liverpool city though.
 
I can't keep up.

I have no idea what is going on anymore.

I have no idea what I can and cannot do.

It's a total shitshow
Keep checking your local borough council’s Twitter page (you don’t have to have an account to do this) and they have the latest restrictions pinned at the top of the page,

Or just follow your own strict rules at the highest level from March (apart from going to work) and you won’t fall foul of any rules.

Basically, anyway, nothing has changed for us in Greater Manchester. We were already a HIGH RISK area, and we are still a HIGH RISK area.
 
I tried putting a central Liverpool postcode in to see what it says for tier 3 and the information it gives is no different to us. So it’s not even up to date. I assume it’s reliable for anyone outside of Liverpool city though.
The new restrictions start on Wednesday.

It was only announced in Parliament two hours ago and will only be voted on in Parliament tomorrow, so nothing will change on that link until Wednesday
 
This is the hardest question.

We do now seem to have a strategy, if unwritten and unclear, it being "Muddle along without killing too many people until a vaccine arrives"

I'm no epidemiologist, or public health expert, but it seems to me that we can't carry on forever if that vaccine doesn't arrive. I'd propose "Very gradually open up and take the awful consequences"

Here goes.

Right now there is a good but not certain prospect of a vaccine being proven effective (not necessarily rolled out) in the next six months. So, we should suppress the virus to as low levels as possible, primarily through huge investment in local test, track and trace (this is actually far cheaper than the economic hit of current mini-lockdowns, and allows a better quality of life).

*If* there is a succession of negative vaccine trial readouts, then we need to accept we can't control the virus in the short term, and gradually open up whilst attempting to limit the damage. Noting that this will kill perhaps a quarter of a million people, so require something like 10 months of deaths at 1000 per day, equivalent to the peak of the first wave (best estimates of herd immunity levels and fatality rates), it is is a very far from trivial challenge. I guess you can envisage a gradual relaxing of restrictions one at a time, perhaps along the lines of
- all remaining educational restrictions lifted
- household mixing relaxed say from 6 to 20 or something
- weddings, funerals relaxed from 15 to 50
- hospitality opening restrictions lifted, but COVID safe measures remain (eg no ordering at bars, limiting occupancy)
etc etc etc until back to close to normal - obviously needs to be thought through properly and prioritised right. Events which put vulnerable at risk need to be the last to be opened up - we want immunity as high as possible in the rest of the population.

Alongside this, you'd need a big testing programme so spikes can be averted, though as immunity levels rise, the likelihood of sudden big outbreaks falls.

I fear that mass stadium events are towards the very bottom of the list, given just how fast the spread could be at a full Etihad.

This herd immunity strategy will not eliminate the virus, just as smallpox was not eliminated before vaccines became available. Infection can be expected to grumble along with sporadic outbreaks. So, some restrictions will likely stay in place for a very long time, or even forever, given just how lethal it is to older and vulnerable groups, and how contagious it is. Eg ongoing very regular testing of care home staff, residents and visitors (IIRC half of our deaths have been from care homes).

Meanwhile, hopefully treatments will improve and bring more options for control eg prophylactic monoclonal antibodies for very vulnerable.

I think the govt should be undertaking this sort of thinking, and doing it publicly, to help build understanding of what is possible and what the consequences of different choices in these circumstances are. It would also help build support for the current approach, by educating as to the implications of other approaches.

As I write this, I realise just how difficult it will be. So fingers crossed for that vaccine.

Whaddaya think? Is there a better way?


Good post mate. But if hugging or spending some quality time with close relatives who might be elderly or such like would be amongst the highest risk category and as you say one of the last to open due to their vulnerability, I just can't see people sticking at that for too much longer. Anything could happen between now and that point down the line, people will weigh up the regret of not coming into contact with each other and the risk of doing so and make their own choices.
 
Effectiveness is accepted in so much as it produces antibodies side effects are another matter.

That's not effectiveness as defined for medicines (incl vaccines) - it's evidence of a biological response - a phase I trial. For efficacy we need a trial which tests not just whether antibodies are generated, but whether the disease is prevented.

In the same way, it's common that cancer drugs, for instance in early trials will be shown to knock down a biological target, but ultimately fail to actually stop the cancer. Most novel drugs seen as successful in phase I are ultimately not successful in efficacy trials (phase 3).

And that's aside from the safety issue.
 
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