Political relations between UK-EU

[west didsblue]

I can’t see us rejoining. What I can see is a direction of travel, towards rejoining the single market.
I think eyes , especially opposition parties eyes,Scottish and Welsh too, will be on N.Ireland.
Think Labour policy will be to rejoin the S.M and I’m no expert but would guess the N.Ireland arrangement could be quite easily agreed and copied across without much negotiating.

Agree with you for the short to medium term, but if we end up rejoining the SM in say 5 years, it’s difficult to predict what will happen in the long term once we’ve restarted on that journey. If we’re in the SM there will come a point when we’ll want a proper say in setting the rules again.

Also just rejoining the SM doesn’t address the GB/NI Irish Sea border so the CU will possibly follow unless Ireland re-unites first.

 

[urban genie]

What about the point that the EU, as a whole, skews it’s immigration system in favour of those earning above £20,000, coming into the EU from elsewhere?

That is the EUs problem, we are not a member state so not our business

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I am not advocating open borders, I am saying the line we are overcrowded is a lie.

Depends how you define "overcrowded" but it's fact that, barring the smaller countries like Belgium & the Netherlands, the UK is the most densely populated of all the major EU and other European countries.

20% more densely populated than Germany, 35% more than Italy & Switzerland,
around double France, Denmark & Poland, 2.5 times more densely populated than Spain and around 3 times countries like Greece, Ireland, Ukraine, Romania. And around 10 times more densely populated than the Scandinavian countries.

Updated: Globally, of countries of 200,000 sq km or more, there are only 4 countries (Bangladesh, Philippines, India & Japan) with higher population densities than the UK. Vietnam & Pakistan are about the same.

 

[blueparrot]

Agree with you for the short to medium term, but if we end up rejoining the SM in say 5 years, it’s difficult to predict what will happen in the long term once we’ve restarted on that journey. If we’re in the SM there will come a point when we’ll want a proper say in setting the rules again.

Think that would depend entirely on public opinion, can’t see any party risking a referendum on it unless there was overwhelming support. Depends what happens in the mean time to the rest of the UK too, If for instance N.Ireland and Scotland had left the UK and already rejoined, I have no idea what English / Welsh politics would look like. I also have no idea what Westminster would offer in terms of further devolution if support for UK breakaways gathered momentum.

 

[Ban-jani]

That is the EUs problem, we are not a member state so not our business

But the point is that it’s a perfectly normal immigration policy to hold, as it ensures those coming in are contributing and they’re likely to industries we need them in.

 

[mcfc1632]

Its only 'bubbling ' in countries with far right Conservative Nationalistic governments tho isn't it? (notice a trend there).

I admire Bobs courage in asking the question of ''Whats your longer term strategic view of our relationship with the Eu' because where we are right now is that 50% of the UK are very unhappy about being out and there are already ''Rejoin'' groups popping up on social media platforms, some of them are quite vociferous.

Probably a similar amount also believe that our current state is built on shifting sands.... those sands being the Lies of the leave campaigners, the involvement of Cambridge Analytica, Banks , Farage et al and their Russian funding, .... the discontent will become more vocal when the promises made are broken (they are already) , the sunny uplands don't appear and the Union fragments.

Every little inconvenience , Everything that goes wrong from now on in will be placed at the door of Brexit and those that facilitated it.

The Tories will be too busy trying to sandbag the floodwaters to actually achieve anything other than maintain the status quo (all they do anyway) and line their own pockets.

Nope - you are wholly wrong and just showing, IMO, that your obsessions define you

You obviously think that when I talk about 'bubbling issues boiling over' - I am referring to RW movements in some countries - I am most certainly not

That is simply the limitations that you seem to have - I am talking about much more fundamental issues - of the sort @Prestwich_Blue is referring to

 

[bugsyblue]

Can’t wait for us to rejoin.

 

[Metal Biker]

Can’t wait for us to rejoin.

You could always migrate to Europe.

 

[BobKowalski]

You misunderstand my position. I'm not a little Englander Brexiteer. If there had been an option on the referendum ballot paper to leave the EU but remain in the single market, that's what I'd have happily voted for. I'm also not in favour of closing our borders completely. Had we done that a century or so ago, my mother might well have been shot or gassed by the Nazis in Eastern Europe as a young child. So I believe we should be generous in taking in genuine refugees.

Closing of the Erasmus scheme does not deprive people of the ability to study at foreign universities. My uncle, born and brought up in the Strangeways area, went to university in Switzerland 60 years ago, as did many of my contemporaries in the 1970's, particularly those doing languages.

You stated opposition to Freedom of movement so I assumed opposition to a Single Market which requires FoM. You oppose greater integration, but without a common rule book, harmonised regulation and handing elements of political control to a body to oversee this, you cannot have a Single Market.

Two other points. I distrust the use of the phrase ‘genuine refugees’ as I always suspect the qualification for ‘genuine’ would be such to make being a refugee all but impossible.

Erasmus was a scheme that facilitated children to travel and study. Scrapping it, and being comfortable with doing so, and then trotting out platitudes of how it was done back in the day is the very definition of blinkered thinking. ‘Oh, look, it was a bit more difficult back then but we still did it, what are you moaning about?’ Well, I prefer to live in a country that facilitates and values it rather than tosses it in the bin with barely a thought.

This Turing scheme, ironically named after someone persecuted for being gay, something else we used to do ‘back in the day’, doesn’t even exist. So why not do both? Run Erasmus and put together our own program? Best of both worlds. And do you really think this Govt is going to put this Turing program in place or gives a fuck?

 

[mcfc1632]

This is the fundamental problem with the Euro. You simply cannot have an effective single currency across countries where there are fundamental economic differences. It defies the laws of economics.

Prior to the Euro, those countries had the twin methods of interest rates and exchange rates to address imbalances. They could change either of these to make the country more attractive to inward investment or discourage outward flows. Now the countries in the Eurozone, like Greece, can't do that because they're tied in to the ECB via the Euro.

The Euro suits countries with net export surpluses over countries that, say, rely on tourism (where exchange rates are hugely important). Now, which country has large trade surpluses?

The Euro is the equivalent of a doctor telling every patient to take 2 Paracetamol 3 times a day, irrespective of their symptoms. It might help some who have aches & pains but won't help someone with a more serious condition.

Indeed - and the situation has become so bad that the EU now has only one option left for the Eurozone - it must achieve/force political, economic and fiscal integration and it is moving towards doing that carefully considered step by carefully considered step.

It is a 'good strategy' from the ideologues POV - they are using the Covid recovery fund as just one tool to force the acceptance of integration policies and plans.

In a different world - where all people are of the same culture and could adopt the policies and working practices of Germany, Holland etc. it might work - but when you have the cultural disparities that exist across the EU27 - then there is zero chance.

When the debt mutualisation strategy gets turned into policies and implementation plans there will be fractures - both from the affluent countries and the poorer ones

 

[BobKowalski]

But take Libya as an example of where they’re coming from; the EU has been criticised by other NATO countries in their lack of action when it comes to stabilising Libya. It seems Turkey are putting greater plans in action to help the plight of Libya when it’s the EU where these refugees are [eventually] coming to.

And rightly criticised, the actions of Frontex in Greece have also been condemned.

France and Italy have been meddling and fucking up Libya for years now. Absolute shitshow, especially as both France and Italy were operating opposing strategies based on their perceived self interests.

 

[bugsyblue]

You could always migrate to Europe.

I could yes. Something to consider.

 

[hilts]

Splitting hairs now.

You claimed the place was crowded, it obviously isn't and I am sure the monarchy could spare a lot of the unused land they own that is private and so isn't any us peasants beautiful countryside as we are barred from it, or the defunct brownfill sites that sit idle, or the stateley himes tgat take up acres for at time.one dodderimg old lord to live in, give the **** a one bedroomed flat and put the place to better use

The cities are are crowded and every bit of green in then seems to get built on, while vast areas of the country are left untouched and unavailable to it's citizens

Think about your last paragraph you might realise you have made a point against FOM, how you got some likes for that is quite amusing.

 

[BobKowalski]

You’ve just argued my point for me. If millions are willing to travel in danger to Europe, without a visa, what would happen if it wasn’t dangerous to do so, and you could live where ever you wanted at the drop of a hat?

It’s not hysterical fear, if it was, at least one first world country on the planet would adopt your policy, but they don’t, because it’s lunacy.

People are fleeing war zones. Whether you have an strict immigration policy or no immigration policy, they are going to flee and the numbers are such it would make a country’s immigration policy irrelevant. That is a humanitarian crisis, not a discussion on immigration.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

You stated opposition to Freedom of movement so I assumed opposition to a Single Market which requires FoM. You oppose greater integration, but without a common rule book, harmonised regulation and handing elements of political control to a body to oversee this, you cannot have a Single Market.

Two other points. I distrust the use of the phrase ‘genuine refugees’ as I always suspect the qualification for ‘genuine’ would be such to make being a refugee all but impossible.

Erasmus was a scheme that facilitated children to travel and study. Scrapping it, and being comfortable with doing so, and then trotting out platitudes of how it was done back in the day is the very definition of blinkered thinking. ‘Oh, look, it was a bit more difficult back then but we still did it, what are you moaning about?’ Well, I prefer to live in a country that facilitates and values it rather than tosses it in the bin with barely a thought.

This Turing scheme, ironically named after someone persecuted for being gay, something else we used to do ‘back in the day’, doesn’t even exist. So why not do both? Run Erasmus and put together our own program? Best of both worlds. And do you really think this Govt is going to put this Turing program in place or gives a fuck?

I'll grant you that scrapping Erasmus seemed a bit petty. But you make it sound like no one will ever get the chance to do a year at an overseas university ever again. I've made it clear the fact it doesn't exist anymore doesn't stop anyone from going to any university anywhere in the world. It just makes it a little more difficult for some to go to some universities.

Maybe the institutions themselves, say the Russell Group, could come to reciprocal arrangements with like-minded universities. Rotary Club, for example, had a scheme which my cousin took advantage of to do a year in Sam Diego where she met her (soon-to-be-exj husband. Don't know if they still do but things will change and adapt. That's the way of the world. We closed all the coal mines but we still manage to generate electricity. We don't hunt animals anymore but we still manage to eat.

 

[Ban-jani]

People are fleeing war zones. Whether you have an strict immigration policy or no immigration policy, they are going to flee and the numbers are such it would make a country’s immigration policy irrelevant. That is a humanitarian crisis, not a discussion on immigration.

There are a significant number coming too from outside war zones but the wars have contributed massively to it, yes.

I agree that those fleeing war is a different argument and the 1st world does have a duty to give refugee status to genuine refugees.

I still maintain that offering visas to anyone on the planet that wants one would result in chaos and is never going to be a policy that gains enough votes.

It’s Utopianism, which is never a good idea.

 

[urban genie]

Think about your last paragraph you might realise you have made a point against FOM, how you got some likes for that is quite amusing.

I have never advocated FOM though so what is your point?

And cities are crowded as they are cities and tend to attract higer populations, I never said overcrowded though which Manchester certainly isn't

 

[Cheesy]

It’s what some people on the left call everyone to the right of Tony Blair.

That’s the problem we have.

The poster who used it on this thread genuinely thinks Priti Patel is on a par with Heinrich Himmler.

This is the issue with our politics.

Perversely, that poster and others like him are less tolerant of anyone with a different point of view to them than most of those they would describe as 'far right'.

 

[BobKowalski]

I'll grant you that scrapping Erasmus seemed a bit petty. But you make it sound like no one will ever get the chance to do a year at an overseas university ever again. I've made it clear the fact it doesn't exist anymore doesn't stop anyone from going to any university anywhere in the world. It just makes it a little more difficult for some to go to some universities.

Maybe the institutions themselves, say the Russell Group, could come to reciprocal arrangements with like-minded universities. Rotary Club, for example, had a scheme which my cousin took advantage of to do a year in Sam Diego where she met her (soon-to-be-exj husband. Don't know if they still do but things will change and adapt. That's the way of the world. We closed all the coal mines but we still manage to generate electricity. We don't hunt animals anymore but we still manage to eat.

The decision was petty, it was casual vandalism because no value is placed on a scheme like Erasmus, and if as a country we no longer value such a scheme then what does it say about this country.

You can actually ‘Brexit’ and do it in a way that doesn’t make it seem we are full of small minded arseholes. Unfortunately, or perhaps inevitably, we chose the small minded arseholes route.

We place no value on our links with Europe, we see no merit in the European project, we sustain ourselves on the notion that the European project, the Euro must and will fail. We have no vision of ourselves other than being opposed to a ‘doomed project’. It is an article of faith.

The question that remains, the unspoken fear for this country, is what if it doesn’t fail? And if it doesn’t fail, what does that say about our lack of imagination, our lack of vision?

Which brings me back to my original question. What is our vision? What does the UK want to do? What does it want to be?

 

[hilts]

I have never advocated FOM though so what is your point?

And cities are crowded as they are cities and tend to attract higer populations, I never said overcrowded though which Manchester certainly isn't

I’m glad you don’t want FOM as it is a policy for idiots, it can never be argued that not having control of something is better than having control.

Cities are crowded but not over crowded and Manchester isn’t over crowded

Err okay:-)