Political relations between UK-EU

[hilts]

Definitely.... As discussed with Eamo before...there won't ever be a pure United Ireland....but a unified island with significant unionist input...although, they won't actually be unionists anymore.

It's this line of thinking that will see the SDLP gain new voters and the "shared island" thing

Ever is a long time

 

[joe123]

I'd honestly say the main reason as a Brit I want to keep NI is it is a symbol of the UK being on the island of Ireland and a permanent reminder to those south of the border of our presence, especially after they felt the need to blow up the Arndale.

What NI actually brings to the UK I don't know, it comes across as "another place" as it rarely seems to make any effort to really sell itself and promote its plus points, whereas the Scots never bloody shut up.

Congratulations on winning the most cuntish post of the week award.

 

[meltonblue]

They haven’t been sold out. As a Mancunian i may or may not want to be in a union but it’s none of my business whether a Scotsman does or an Irishman does. I don’t live there so cannot make that decision or give an opinion on their behalf.

Unless I’m wrong NI is still part of the Union. They are specific things that apply to NI because of a complicated history that isn’t worth going over. But nobody decided to vote the way they did because they are unmoved by the people of Northern Ireland. Just like the Irish didn’t vote taking into account English folk. It works both ways. You ask everyone the same question and see what the result is.

So much hassle is caused by people labelling themselves and being bothered about which govt shafts them. Tub thumping nationalists or unionists obsessed with lines on maps need to grow up. That applies to everywhere in the world.

If you have self determination in a democracy then use it and decide what is best for you and your countrymen going forward.

If we take the 4 countries of the U.K. and let’s throw in Southern Ireland as well for giggles there is lots of permutations there. Total independence a Union of all those countries, some of those countries, Eu membership. It’s 2020 grow up, make your mind up and get on with it.

That’s irrelevant to the point people are making though. The reason May could never sign up to the deal Johnson did was that she wasn’t willing to put any form of border between ourselves and NI, I’d argue rightly so as leader of the conservative and unionist party. No one has voted on that, our government has negotiated a deal that has included it.

 

[hilts]

That’s irrelevant to the point people are making though. The reason May could never sign up to the deal Johnson did was that she wasn’t willing to put any form of border between ourselves and NI, I’d argue rightly so as leader of the conservative and unionist party. No one has voted on that, our government has negotiated a deal that has included it.

Oh no not a border, I think everyone is willing to hear your obvious solution.

 

[blueparrot]

Oh no not a border, I think everyone is willing to hear your obvious solution.

Obvious one, Great Britain and Northern Ireland could have left, or could one day go back to having the same deal. Leave as one UK was the strap line if I remember. Of course Boris never had the courage to take on the ERG and deliver that particular promise.

 

[hilts]

Obvious one, Great Britain and Northern Ireland could have left, or could one day go back to having the same deal. Leave as one UK was the strap line if I remember. Of course Boris never had the courage to take on the ERG and deliver that particular promise.

GB and Ireland could have just left?

 

[meltonblue]

Oh no not a border, I think everyone is willing to hear your obvious solution.

Sign the entire union up to the same deal, clearly, regardless of if it means it has some elements of it that some don’t want. Otherwise it isn’t a union.

I’m assuming from that comment though that you aren’t one of those that do even feign interest in NI or the union though, which is fair enough, everyone’s entitled to an opinion on it.

 

[hilts]

Sign the entire union up to the same deal, clearly, regardless of if it means it has some elements of it that some don’t want. Otherwise it isn’t a union.

I’m assuming from that comment though that you aren’t one of those that do even feign interest in NI or the union though, which is fair enough, everyone’s entitled to an opinion on it.

Your not saying anything fella, what deal are you talking about here?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

GB and Ireland could have just left?

Have to say Hilts, I’m trying my best to follow where you’re going with this in your responses to others, but frankly your all over the place and whatever about an understanding of NI or not, you seem to show no understanding of Ireland the Republic.

Honestly don’t know what you are on about now.

 

[meltonblue]

Your not saying anything fella, what deal are you talking about here?

Ok, struggling a bit with that! What are you expecting me to reply with, a specific deal...?

 

[hilts]

Have to say Hilts, I’m trying my best to follow where you’re going with this in your responses to others, but frankly your all over the place and whatever about an understanding of NI or not, you seem to show no understanding of Ireland the Republic.

Honestly don’t know what you are on about now.

Fella we won 2 0 tonight and I’m happy so I’m not arsed if you know what I’m on about or not. I’m still awaiting to hear what it is you or others who are unhappy actually want. I’ve heard the people don’t care about NI bit which i find a bit hypocritical but either enlighten me to what the problem is and what the solution is or leave it.

I don’t think hardly anyone in the U.K. has got exactly what they want but if you can come up with something that makes everyone happy let’s hear it. Otherwise it just sounds to me like me upset no fair and we have had over 4 years of that.

 

[hilts]

Ok, struggling a bit with that! What are you expecting me to reply with, a specific deal...?

The problem was a border in Ireland which no one wanted, so unless you have a solution to this outside of ah well let’s just not bother leaving in anything over than name, then yes you would have to come up with a solution.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Fella we won 2 0 tonight and I’m happy so I’m not arsed if you know what I’m on about or not. I’m still awaiting to hear what it is you or others who are unhappy actually want. I’ve heard the people don’t care about NI bit which i find a bit hypocritical but either enlighten me to what the problem is and what the solution is or leave it.

I don’t think hardly anyone in the U.K. has got exactly what they want but if you can come up with something that makes everyone happy let’s hear it. Otherwise it just sounds to me like me upset no fair and we have had over 4 years of that.

Why would I come up with anything. I’m not British.
As far as I’m aware Dublin hasn’t been in the UK since 1922.

We officially recognise through the GFA that we hold no domain over the six counties of Northern Ireland but have agreed that the people of NI have full right to regard themselves as Irish or British or both. They also have the right to future self determination.

But getting them out of the EU and keeping them in the UK is a British problem. Nothing to do with us.

And just for clarity. No we won’t be rejoining the UK here in Dublin either.

I can see the Northern Irish people’s concerns, the unionists as well as the Nationalists. That’s as far as my interest in this debate goes. I don’t know about sellout or not. Not for me to say. But AWG made a very reasonable post earlier as far as I’m concerned.

 

[meltonblue]

The problem was a border in Ireland which no one wanted, so unless you have a solution to this outside of ah well let’s just not bother leaving in anything over than name, then yes you would have to come up with a solution.

Ah ok. Personally I don’t have a solution to that specific point, that’s not the point I was making. On that, Mays deal tried to achieve it, but like you say, for a lot of people that was considered leaving just in name or conversely too hard a brexit as well (which seems to be forgotten now) - that just shows how much the debate has shifted.

On the point I was making though. If you’re genuinely unionist, then you go into negotiations with the underlying principle of ensuring the same deal for all regardless of the consequences as the consistency of that union is the primary point.

Like has been said, it’s just shown that actually there aren’t that many people that interested in NI or the union or if they are, it isn’t as important to them as our deal with the EU is. That’s fine and a lot of people will just readily admit it, like on this thread. Johnson didn’t do that though, he was deliberately disingenuous about it.

 

[hilts]

Why would I come up with anything. I’m not British.
As far as I’m aware Dublin hasn’t been in the UK since 1922.

We officially recognise through the GFA that we hold no domain over the six counties of Northern Ireland but have agreed that the people of NI have full right to regard themselves as Irish or British or both. They also have the right to future self determination.

But getting them out of the EU and keeping them in the UK is a British problem. Nothing to do with us.

And just for clarity. No we won’t be rejoining the UK here in Dublin either.

I can see the Northern Irish people’s concerns, the unionists as well as the Nationalists. That’s as far as my interest in this debate goes. I don’t know about sellout or not. Not for me to say. But AWG made a very reasonable post earlier as far as I’m concerned.

If it has nothing to do with you I’m wondering why we have bothered then. You agree with AWG although I’m still not sure what the actual problem is and I don’t, good we can move on.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

If it has nothing to do with you I’m wondering why we have bothered then. You agree with AWG although I’m still not sure what the actual problem is and I don’t, good we can move on.

Night night.

 

[hilts]

Ah ok. Personally I don’t have a solution to that specific point, that’s not the point I was making. On that, Mays deal tried to achieve it, but like you say, for a lot of people that was considered leaving just in name or conversely too hard a brexit as well (which seems to be forgotten now) - that just shows how much the debate has shifted.

On the point I was making though. If you’re genuinely unionist, then you go into negotiations with the underlying principle of ensuring the same deal for all regardless of the consequences as the consistency of that union is the primary point.

Like has been said, it’s just shown that actually there aren’t that many people that interested in NI or the union or if they are, it isn’t as important to them as our deal with the EU is. That’s fine and a lot of people will just readily admit it, like on this thread. Johnson didn’t do that though, he was deliberately disingenuous about it.

No the problem was no solution could be found, sometimes in life that happens unfortunately. No one can say every effort wasn’t made and I refute people don’t or didn’t give a shit about NI. We all have things in life we can moan about or dislike but without a solution it’s just that moaning.

The biggest problem with unions is precisely what we have seen. You either accept the decisions of the whole union or you should find another path. Maybe a solution will be found but you never know the people of NI May benefit from having a foot in both camps so to speak.If they get stronger economically out of it I think those complaining might quieten down.

No doubt the rest or some of the U.K. may start complaining then. Such is life.

 

[meltonblue]

No the problem was no solution could be found, sometimes in life that happens unfortunately. No one can say every effort wasn’t made and I refute people don’t or didn’t give a shit about NI. We all have things in life we can moan about or dislike but without a solution it’s just that moaning.

The biggest problem with unions is precisely what we have seen. You either accept the decisions of the whole union or you should find another path. Maybe a solution will be found but you never know the people of NI May benefit from having a foot in both camps so to speak.If they get stronger economically out of it I think those complaining might quieten down.

No doubt the rest or some of the U.K. may start complaining then. Such is life.

Like I said though, that’s just an example of how much the debate has shifted. We’ve gone (very quickly) to accepting something that “no British prime minister could accept”, which was due to its consequences on the union and NI, to justifying doing exactly that because of people having the opinion now of exactly like what you’ve just posted.

That’s fine, it is what it is. Its disingenuous to say that as part of a union, you accept the majority position though as they did do that. What you don’t expect is different deals for different parts of it that then split that union.

 

[hilts]

Like I said though, that’s just an example of how much the debate has shifted. We’ve gone (very quickly) to accepting something that “no British prime minister could accept”, which was due to its consequences on the union and NI, to justifying doing exactly that because of people having the opinion now of exactly like what you’ve just posted.

That’s fine, it is what it is. Its disingenuous to say that as part of a union, you accept the majority position though as they did do that. What you don’t expect is different deals for different parts of it that then split that union.

The union isn’t split but again what is the solution, normally 2 things would happen with a vote that the whole union partakes in.

Remain wins all stays the same leavers unlucky that’s democracy
Leave win U.K. spilts from Eu border goes up.

Now leave wins and we can’t put a border up so what do you suggest we do sack the whole thing? So we have a union where a very small minority decides for the whole U.K. guessing I reckon about 400,000 people in NI voted remain. So these 400,000 determine the future forever or until a time when a border becomes acceptable which may be never. So know we have one or two posters saying isn’t it bad that no one cares about NI, really?

Welsh remainers tough, Scottish remainers tough, English remainers tough that’s democracy. Northern Ireland citizens can pick their passports they can get a lot of the EU benefits even after the vote and the U.K. leaving.It’s seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.

Ask yourself who has lost the least out of this? And then ask yourself if it’s not a bit much to suggest Northern Ireland has been sold out.

 

[Metal Biker]

Like I said though, that’s just an example of how much the debate has shifted. We’ve gone (very quickly) to accepting something that “no British prime minister could accept”, which was due to its consequences on the union and NI, to justifying doing exactly that because of people having the opinion now of exactly like what you’ve just posted.

That’s fine, it is what it is. Its disingenuous to say that as part of a union, you accept the majority position though as they did do that. What you don’t expect is different deals for different parts of it that then split that union.

Sounds so familiar...