Political relations between UK-EU

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Fode N The Hole said:
It's a bootleg snuff film masquerading as an independent arthouse project.

It got got minimal coverage because it had no support of those in positions of power or any popular support.
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Without support of those in positions of power not just politicians, but those who wield power in the media, it was always an uphill struggle to gain any support despite there being a long tradition of Euroscepticism on the Labour left going back to the days of Benn and Foot. Corbyn is a long time sceptic but was hamstrung by a CLP more intent in removing him than supporting him, so LEXIT was denied a face on the left.
Fode N The Hole said:
You can't make the case to leave the EU on the basis of communist revolutionary theory or Gramscian ideas of class. Values and identity is much more powerful than economic arguments of redistribution and the like.
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Nobody was arguing on the basis of Revolutionary Communist theory, Marxism, Gramsci, Luxembourg or any other leftist philosophical figure. It recognised the importance of of values and identity. Small C conservative values are inherent to Democratic Socialism.
Fode N The Hole said:
The Brexiteers vision was inherently rooted in the past and that is a big part why it won, many people looking back with rose tinted specs to a time and place that they didn't live in or even learn much about. As I have said before , my experience is most people look backwards not forwards in how they view their politics. British Rail was raised whenever people spoke about nationalisation or public ownership (despite the fact that BR was for a significant part of its history increasingly privatised), they don't look to examples in other countries in the present day. The narrative about BR is more important than the facts and truth, you could quote articles and studies and all manner of evidence and somebody who raised BR would probably turn around and say I was there and know how it was.
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The Brexiteers of the right used this very effectively, Remain has no counter narrative. As Lexit was pushed out of the picture due to lack of figurehead the case for renationalisation was left as Labour party policy rather than a benefit of leaving.
Fode N The Hole said:
Both Owen Jones and Paul Mason have come to realisation that Brexit was always intrinsically and inevitably a racist xenophobic project despite having different viewpoints and leanings.
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I take neither of them seriously, they have both become parodies of themselves. Jones the self proclaimed Socialist is a liberal, pure and simple. Mason the Music graduate has his good points, he is pointedly anti fascist, but has become a figure of fun on the left, many think his bats have left his belfry.

Brexit i am certain has its racist and xenophobic element, James O'Brien is fond of saying "Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but every racist voted leave"
Fode N The Hole said:
As Owen Jones raises the point, most people don't want to leave the EU because of neo-liberalism. Most people wouldn't even know what neoliberal economics is, there are still prominent posters on this sub forum who refer to it frequently without actually knowing what it really means. Most people don't have the idea (certainly not fully articulated) that you can have different kinds of capitalism, or the grasp that the capitalism in the UK in this moment is different from how it is expressed in a different country or in a different decade. Why else would austerity have been so successful in enchanting the three major parties for two straight elections in 2010 and 2015? You can't fight the kind of political and economical battles that you want to fight Rascal in a world where you don't have popular appeal and popular support but childish analogies like household budgets take root.



www.newstatesman.com

The UK must embrace a European future or accept isolation and decline

As the world divides into regional superpowers – the US, China and the EU – Britain cannot stand alone.
www.newstatesman.com www.newstatesman.com
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There may be an element of truth to that. 40 years of propaganda is never going to be changed overnight, thankfully this government is doing its level best to eradicate those 40 years of propaganda and this pandemic has highlighted the flaws in neo-liberalism just as it has also highlighted the flaws in democracy.

I was arguing against austerity on here 10 years ago, I warned of the consequences, I highlighted the idiotic analogies, but propaganda is strong and the Tories to be fair were excellent at propagandising the message to full effect.

From my perspective, there is now hope where there was no hope that a Socialist country can be realised. I would have i have stated previously been quite happy to vote remain of there was a vision for the future. Remain failed through a mixture of arrogance and complacency and they lacked a vision.
 
My favourite vinyl dealers from Europe no longer delivering to UK. Delays and costs being cited. My Italian based blues vinyl monthly box has been put on hold for same reason. Not wishing to warp the conversation but this is the final cut for me.
 
www.thelondoneconomic.com

These are all the EU laws that have been forced on us 'against our will'

Rationalist vs Leave theory that exiting the EU means "taking back control".
www.thelondoneconomic.com www.thelondoneconomic.com
The above link is an interesting read. It lists all 72, yes 72 laws out of over 4500 that were passed against our will whilst we were members. Examples are making sure carciogenic ingredients are highlighted on food packaging and protection for passengers when a flight is delayed/cancelled-both of which the UK didn't want. Oh I think tobacco advertising is in there as well.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
One way of moving the debate on is to recognise the problems in detail. Then a proper discussion on how they could be resolved. That is more useful than a dry hypothetical discussion about what should have been done. Good programme management is fixing forward not looking back. Until you and others admit and recognise that there are issues this thread will remain in its present intellectual limbo.
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Agreed. Recognising where we are, and what the deal entails for businesses is the first step in mitigating what issues can be mitigated or at least putting systems in place that assist businesses that are handicapped by the lack of seamless access.

The first and most sensible step would have been agreeing this deal in year one and having a transition deal in place for year two while we tried to work out what barriers were now in place and how much resource was needed to navigate these barriers.

We gave it six days during a pandemic. A decision I note that the ‘systems guru‘ fully supported.

We should have also identified which issues are a feature of Brexit and those that are a result of mismanagement and lack of time as the latter is exacerbating the former.
 
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This is a case in point re this story about meat exports ‘rotting’ away.

‘Pigs heads and other meat exports are rotting in Rotterdam as “eye-watering” post-Brexit paperwork stifles the UK meat industry. 120+ lorries are currently believed to be stuck at the Dutch port. One lorry carrying pork has been there for nearly 3 weeks.’ @politicshome

Yet as per Sam Lowe ‘For some reason the UK made no effort to negotiate a veterinary agreement similar to the Swiss that would have removed the need for declarations and checks on products of animal origin both at the EU border, and on trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.‘

So you have two issues. The standard EU rules on meat produce (a problem) with no attempt to mitigate that problem, thereby making it worse.

But the reason we didn’t ask is because it would require something in return and that might ‘dilute’ the purity of Brexit. I note that the ‘systems guru’ also put purity over pragmatism.
 
Finally, the story from the Standard captures this naive belief that the deal meant we carried on as before...

‘He said: “A lot of companies thought that just because a deal was done everything would stay the same but what we are finding, whether they are SMEs, FTSE 100 or Fortune 500 companies, is that they are not prepared for all the forms and regulations they have to adhere to.’

www.standard.co.uk

Hair salons face Brexit chaos as beauty supplies tangled in red tape

Hair salons have become the latest businesses to be hit by the Brexit chaos since Britain’s split with the European Union was finalised at the end of the year.
www.standard.co.uk www.standard.co.uk
 
Vic said:
Spent too much time on here but honed arguments to use more widely when we got the second referendum. That was the only way to stop it. And always being careful not to paint all Leavers as thick racists, even though it was obvious that thick racists had swung it (e.g. the 4% willing to vote for the BNP).
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So nothing then? And by the lack of replies from the other anti-Brexit spam posters on this thread, they did absolutely nothing neither.

So you’re coming in here moaning about how shit something is that you all did close to fuck all to try and stop happening?!

I would have thought the level of obsession you all have with the continual and repetitive posting tactics on this thread, that you’d have done everything you possibly could have to stop Brexit happening.

But all you all did was vote Remain and moan on Bluemoon for five years, and ongoing.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
So nothing then? And by the lack of replies from the other anti-Brexit spam posters on this thread, they did absolutely nothing neither.

So you’re coming in here moaning about how shit something is that you all did close to fuck all to try and stop happening?!

I would have thought the level of obsession you all have with the continual and repetitive posting tactics on this thread, that you’d have done everything you possibly could have to stop Brexit happening.

But all you all did was vote Remain and moan on Bluemoon for five years, and ongoing.
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Other than voting in a different government not sure what you think the average person could do, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a crap idea, that could have been mitigated but wasn’t. Doesn’t mean it can’t be discussed.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
If you mean joining some of the campaigns, attending marches, signing petitions, writing to MP’s on numerous occasions, does that give me your permission to post my views on this thread?
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I never mentioned permission, I asked what makes people think they have a point if they did nowt.

Seems you did get off your arse. It obviously didn’t work, as not enough people actually got off their arses to do something, multiple things, to stop Brexit happening.

But my next question would be, instead of the masochism of trying to bask in reflected glory for something most people did nothing to stop happening even though they never have and never will oppose something so much in their life... what is the solution?!

Because the solution is certainly not to come on to Bluemoon and moan for years on end about this. That will change precisely fuck all. So what are you going to do about this situation to make it better?
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
I never mentioned permission, I asked what makes people think they have a point if they did nowt.

Seems you did get off your arse. It obviously didn’t work, as not enough people actually got off their arses to do something, multiple things, to stop Brexit happening.

But my next question would be, instead of the masochism of trying to bask in reflected glory for something most people did nothing to stop happening even though they never have and never will oppose something so much in their life... what is the solution?!

Because the solution is certainly not to come on to Bluemoon and moan for years on end about this. That will change precisely fuck all. So what are you going to do about this situation to make it better?
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I'm currently bidding on a massive bus on ebay?
 
blueparrot said:
Other than voting in a different government not sure what you think the average person could do, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a crap idea, that could have been mitigated but wasn’t. Doesn’t mean it can’t be discussed.
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Off the top of my head in the time frame of writing one post I came up with:
Demanding to speak to your local MP to question the inept or even complete lack of tactics used by the Remain campaign.
Create blogs/video channels/websites, organise meetings in your area, or even go door-to-door, to try and educate people further than what the Remain campaign were failing at doing.
Even getting involved in the Remain campaign.

If I was as passionate about Remain winning/Brexit not happening as some on this thread appear to be (look at the posting rates on this thread, it wasn’t even left alone on Christmas Day morning for fuck’s sake!) but I did close to nothing else but vote a few times, I wouldn’t be coming on Bluemoon to moan about it every day, I’d be looking back at what I did (fuck all) with my head in my hands thinking “why the fuck didn’t I do more?!” and then I’d be actioning something for the future to make things better, not making the same mistake of doing fuck all other than moaning on Bluemoon.
 
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Nearly three weeks in and it's worse than I thought.
Naively I thought that it would take several months before the impact of Brexit was felt properly once we managed to avoid No Deal.
Seems I was wrong and there's horror stories every day in all sorts of industries where it was thought it would just be a minor inconvenience.
What's even worse is that this is just for starters. The main problems will initially go largely unseen as our services sector, comprising 80% of the economy, loses more and more business to the EU due to there being no deal, no equivalence and no recognition of professional qualifications. It will become clearly apparent when tax revenues plummet putting the future prospects of the country in dire straits. These are the areas where the companies involved have implemented detailed contingency plans and have effectively managed the changes by moving elements of their businesses offshore. This means that the companies will do ok but they will be paying much less tax in the UK and more abroad where they have moved their operations.
The whole thing is a fucking abortion and it's going to get worse.
 
Vic said:
You often said it, never showed anything. Can you cite anything you said about fishing except (a) I didn't understand and (b) Frost was right to give the EU a period of no change in rights (but only after he'd said it)?
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Genuinely have no need to

My assertion is that you have ".....continually showed that you did not" (understand the subject of fishing - in the context of the Brexit negotiations)

The evidence is there in abundance - provided by your good self
 
journolud said:
Been trawling the web fir hours this morning, well OK I went to the Guardian website, biased leftie remainers (formerly known as anyway) as they are and found this OPINION piece which makes interesting reading and can't surely reflect reality as all the Brexiteers (as they er, used to be known) on here are all solid in their continued support for and exaltation of the benefits of Brexit

Brexiters are waking up to the damage they've done | Brexit | The Guardian

Off to the Mail or the Sun next to trawl for an article telling is how well it's all going so I can take a balanced view
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Rascal - you know that I enjoy your posts, but - really - Polly Toynbee

Might has well just asked Bob FFS

Actually - that prompts an interesting thought - have Bob and Polly Toynbee been ever seen in the same room?
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Off the top of my head in the time frame of writing one post I came up with:
Demanding to speak to your local MP to question the inept or even complete lack of tactics used by the Remain campaign.
Create blogs/video channels/websites, organise meetings in your area, or even go door-to-door, to try and educate people further than what the Remain campaign were failing at doing.
Even getting involved in the Remain campaign.

If I was as passionate about Remain winning/Brexit not happening as some on this thread appear to be (look at the posting rates on this thread, it wasn’t even left alone on Christmas Day morning for fuck’s sake!) but I did close to nothing else but vote a few times, I wouldn’t be coming on Bluemoon to moan about it every day, I’d be looking back at what I did (fuck all) with my head in my hands thinking “why the fuck didn’t I do more?!” and then I’d be actioning something for the future to make things better, not making the same mistake of doing fuck all other than moaning on Bluemoon.
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Whatever subject poeople don’t have to be politically active to have any opinion on something or want to discuss it. Can’t see why you are making a big deal of it. Besides we are where we are and nothing will make this government change course until public opinion changes. As businesses fail and people lose jobs that will happen, and as elections approach so might government policies.
As long as there is a thread about it posters will point out things going wrong, or if they happen things going right. Just the same as any thread really, nobody expects a post on here to change anything.
 
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