Political relations between UK-EU

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journolud said:
I don't know if I would be in your target audience for this but the reason I didn't reply is because I think your point lacks merit. I agree it's pretty futile to moan about how Brexit is going, like it's pretty futile to predict a team line up before a match, complain about the presence of particular players, moan through the matchday thread and after if we lose, unless of course you are going to personally contact pep with some advice on how he can set the team up better. If we were to steer clear of futile exercises on bluemoon then all we would have left to post in would be worsleywebs what are you doing this weekend threads. (Which I'm not knocking by the way)

Brexit was a complex issue that most of us, if we're being honest, would say we couldn't fully comprehend, let alone have the time to research in depth and then campaign on, most of us don't have the time, or the inclination, to get so immersed in a subject and campaign about it and I'm sure many of us voted without the full knowledge of how it would end up but with a leaning towards remain or leave that may have had an emotional aspect to it.

Naively or otherwise we tend to rely on "experts" to advise us but when there were such conflicting views about the potential impact of Brexit it's no wonder that most people would have gone with their gut instincts and then leant towards the information that supported that view.

Both sides made pretty definitive statements- the remain side did indeed run a pretty poor campaign and some of their most drastic predictions haven't come true. The leave side for their part made some promises which have been shown to be lies and we see daily stories of those who have or are losing out because of Brexit. The upsides, if and when they come are likely a long way off.

I'm resigned to us being out, I think it's a mistake but see no value in campaigning to return. Does my somewhat passive approach to the referendum in the lead up and since disbar me from having a view and the right to express it? Does it fuck.

We are in the middle of a pandemic, people's mental health is suffering and we're a little stir crazy. Meanwhile Brexit is unravelling before our eyes. Nobody is forced to come on this thread, there are hundreds of others but it is absolutely relevant to post links to stories outlining the actual effects of Brexit, not the perceived or predicted ones. Those who advocated Brexit and remain confident that it is a good idea are free to post alternative views and maybe, just maybe, there might be shift as the good news begins to outweigh the bad. At the moment though the positives you posted elsewhere feel like little more than consolation goals in a 5-1 drubbing.
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Excellent
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
IYeah nowt wrong with that in my view. Like I said, I voted Remain for short term selfishness, but in the long term this country will be better off out of the EU so am happy to take the pinch in my life for a better life for future generations.
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Fortunately the future generations are a bit more outward looking than the boomers and bellends who vandalised our country and their future. They’ll have us back in the EU as soon as the chance comes. So those decades of ‘pinch’ or whatever bollocks you called it will just be incalculable amounts of money and opportunity wasted.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
group.Fortunately the future generations are a bit more outward looking than the boomers and bellends who vandalised our country and their future. They’ll have us back in the EU as soon as the chance comes. So those decades of ‘pinch’ or whatever bollocks you called it will just be incalculable amounts of money and opportunity wasted.
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I'm not sure we'd get all the other nations agreeing to our rejoining. I'm not sure EFTA would want us, throwing our weight around in that group. I think we'll just calculate that it's worth stumping up £10bn a year just to get back into the SM, if they'll let us pay for that without actually rejoining.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Would our Vaccine rollout be as good as this if we were in the EU
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BlueHammer85 said:
Just feels we're way ahead of Europe in the roll out of vaccines, not sure if that's just a coincidence we have left
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Define good.

Data from Israel seems to indicate the first shot gives much less protection than the manufacturers claim, bringing into question the policy of delaying the second shot. The UK is ignoring the advice of the vaccine manufacturers and going against the warnings from the WHO and not giving the second dose at three weeks. This is extremely dangerous and extremely foolhardy because it increases the likelhood that the virus will mutate and become immune to the vaccine.

The UKs failed Covid policy has already spread one UK variant to over 50 countries across the globe, A variant that is more virulent than the earlier variants and one that has caused a lock down in the UK and has put enormous strain on the NHS. That pattern will probably be repeated in country after country where the UK variant takes hold. Compare that to Denmark, who have eradicated the variant that originated there.

The UK is putting the whole world at unnecessary risk for the political popularity of one obnoxious individual. I think you would find it difficult to find anyone who isn't subject to the continuous inane propaganda in the UK media that would consider that "good" or "way ahead".
 
Vic said:
I'm not sure we'd get all the other nations agreeing to our rejoining. I'm not sure EFTA would want us, throwing our weight around in that group. I think we'll just calculate that it's worth stumping up £10bn a year just to get back into the SM, if they'll let us pay for that without actually rejoining.
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I think things will have to be incredibly bleak here and have us crawling on our bellies begging for re-admittance in the foreseeable future because the price whenever we do will be FoM, ECJ, Euro the whole nine yards and going back on worse terms than we had will be a really hard sell - unless things are so bad here that anything will do......at which point the EU will be aware of that and we will be at their mercy.
 
blueish swede said:
The UK is putting the whole world at unnecessary risk for the political popularity of one obnoxious individual. I think you would find it difficult to find anyone who isn't subject to the continuous inane propaganda in the UK media that would consider that "good" or "way ahead".
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Yeah but he " Got Christmas Done " fella ( don't mention over 100k dead and highest daily death total - thats inhuman )
 
bluethrunthru said:
I think things will have to be incredibly bleak here and have us crawling on our bellies begging for re-admittance in the foreseeable future because the price whenever we do will be FoM, ECJ, Euro the whole nine yards and going back on worse terms than we had will be a really hard sell - unless things are so bad here that anything will do......at which point the EU will be aware of that and we will be at their mercy.
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We’ll get worse terms of course bit I believe the EU would welcome us back. The disastrous drawn out withdrawal, the divisions it’s created in UK society, the economic damage done and our subsequent desperate U turn will guarantee the block’s solidity for generations. It will happen. It’s just a question of when. 10-15 years would be my guess. Rejoining will win someone an election.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
We’ll get worse terms of course bit I believe the EU would welcome us back. The disastrous drawn out withdrawal, the divisions it’s created in UK society, the economic damage done and our subsequent desperate U turn will guarantee the block’s solidity for generations. It will happen. It’s just a question of when. 10-15 years would be my guess. Rejoining will win someone an election.
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Depends how badly it goes. Three weeks in it’s worse than I expected. If it carries on getting worse rather than reaching a steady state it could be a campaign issue at the next election. The impact on services hasn’t yet become apparent. If services are hit as hard it will make the problems with fish, livestock, NI and logistics look trivial.
 
Rascal said:
You categorise it as a hard left position without describing why it is a hard left position. Unless you consider Democratic Socialists such as Benn as hard left.

It is no wonder the left get no hearing when even the middle of the road leftists are described as Hard Left. What you are doing is using the Daily Mail tactic of describing anything remotely left wing as Hard Left..

Corbyn could not dictate party policy, it is a Democratic party and policy is decided democratically at conference.

Labour Leave

Like the right wing leave the left wing leave also had different ideas of how it should end. For instance The Morning Star supported Lexit as it is a Democratic Socialist stance not a Social Democratic stance. What i would consider the soft left or liberal left were Pro EU but they are comfortable with capitalist excess. Blair himself said that Labour should be comfortable for millionaires.

Yes it did. Farage and Johnson may be proponents of what they like, but they have gambled as well, if brexit does go tits up as is proving the case at the moment due to the sheer incompetence of Johnson, then the door is open to take the country to the left. Shame we have Keith in charge

Not to my satisfaction and it got little traction as RW leave dominated the print media. Most remainer's here argue for the status quo, a position that in my mind was untenable.

As we have seen

The fight is against neo-liberalism, it is against the reservoir of nutjobbery that brought us the stupidity of those economic policies

Lexit was a product of the referendum, Labour Euroscepticism had long lay dormant after the split that lead to the SDP, when in Foots manifesto Labour pledged to take us out of the EU

Osborne (because Cameron is too thick) knew that a referendum could solve Tory disharmony and sew seeds of disharmony in the left. Rather clever of him.

There was no way though a Tory government would skirt around those rules, the Steel industry being point. Only a Labour left led brexit would be enable it.

Yes our governments attachment to neo-liberal economics and its inherent anti state/pro free market stance.

I wish he had been true to his convictions and led the Labour leave campaign.

In your opinion.

The grievance is the Tories fucking up brexit to such an extent things may happen. Brexit itself is still an ideologically sound position, it is just been undertaken by the wrong sort of lunatics.

As is clinging to the EU with its sops to workers and kowtowing to finance.

The fact remains though, we are where we are. We have an extreme right wing brexit that will i fear lead us to a more libertarian, ultra neo-liberal, anti democratic country which i will despise.

It is not my fault though that silly cunts vote Tory.
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Yes, Benn would be termed as hard-left certainly the positions he took later in life outside of the cabinet . Corbyn's historical positions prior to his leadership were hard left too. I wasn't using it as a slur, it's not of soft left and it certainly isn't of the far left like the committed marxists in fringe organisations or violent terrorists like the Red Army Faction. Lexit is hard-left by virtue of it's loudest proponents being on the hard left.

It was reported that Corbyn said during a meeting with Jon Lansman "I better not bloody win". They never thought they could win, but they wanted to make the case against austerity and drag Burnham to the left. I recall it was the two Telegraph journalists who published a book that reported this comment following the 2019 defeat.

Here is an article from 2015.

www.businessinsider.com/theory-jeremy-corbyn-doesnt-want-to-be-leader-of-the-labour-party-2015-11%3famp

And of course he isn't a natural leader or ever had any personal ambition of holding office before the leadership election. I don't think even the most ardent loyalists would claim Corbyn fulfilled the traditional criteria of a good leader.

On the face of it the pledges/demands on the Labour leave site are not particularly distinct from the right wing brexit expression. Anti immigration sentiment against free movement and support for export led growth. It seems stuck in the neomercantilism vision of the right but with concessions for workers rights.

I wouldn't identify as a remainer anymore, but I would call myself a rejoiner. I'm not clinging to the EU, there are good parts and bad parts to it but it's on the whole, a net positive. The European political project has always been about more than just neo-liberalism.
 
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west didsblue said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55725718
Oh well....
So much for buccaneering Britain.
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Brexit boost - for the USA

The UK said it would drop tariffs against the US over subsidies for aerospace firms. The US said the UK had no authority to impose tariffs anyway.

The US Trade Representative said that only the EU sued the US at the WTO, while the UK "did not bring a case in its individual capacity."

"Therefore, the UK has no authority from the WTO to participate in any such action after it is no longer is part of the EU."
 
fuckin' experts eh? When I mentioned this at the time it was ridiculed because the ITK's on this thread had no idea how drivers were paid - well here it is - anyone who knows better than a 30 year owner of a freight forwarding company is welcomed to dispute his conclusions.

 
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