Political relations between UK-EU

[metalblue]

The rules are being applied because we deliberately declined to negotiate exemptions from them.

What you are seeing in action is the deliberate choice of the UK Govt.

We wanted the opportunity to diverge from EU standards, the consequence of that is we did not legally commit to EU standards, thus no UK produced goods or product meets EU legal standards and is therefore subject to checks.

Sorry Bob the conversation has moved on to 2016, I’ll have to come back to you on this

 

[Metal Biker]

Nope - this is simply easily proven bollocks

Had Labour voted on any occasion then the deal would have gone through

Facts and reality can be such an inconvenience

Maybe his memory is going? It was a long time ago.

Another misrepresentation of the facts is that Labour was against Brexit. I remember that Labour were publicly neither for or against leaving the EU. Some MP's were for it, some were against it. Many Labour voters voted to stay, many voted to leave.

It was that indeciveness that led towards the Tory mini-landslide in 2019 and allowed "BoJo's Brexit" to become a reality. Well done remainers, you played yourselves.

 

[bluejon]

Maybe his memory is going? It was a long time ago.

Another misrepresentation of the facts is that Labour was against Brexit. I remember that Labour were publicly neither for or against leaving the EU. Some MP's were for it, some were against it. Many Labour voters voted to stay, many voted to leave.

It was that indeciveness that led towards the Tory mini-landslide in 2019 and allowed "BoJo's Brexit" to become a reality. Well done remainers, you played yourselves.

Nope. We had Jeremy Fucking Corbyn in charge of the party we vote for. Yay us. What a set of choices that was.

 

[Metal Biker]

I'm aware of that, but do you also accept that if the mega hard core brexit nutters, you know, the ones who actually wanted this, had voted for May's deal, then the deal would have gone through? Yes or no answer please.

Yes it would, but it wasn;t brexity enough for them.
However, had Labour's MP's voted to back May's deal, the actions of the ERG wouldn't have mattered at all, and the deal would have passed and we would have left earlier and BoJo's brexit would not have been a reality. Yes or no answer please.

 

[bluejon]

Anyway, good to see the conversation has moved on and evolved on here in the past few months and we're not rehashing old shit. Brexit is here, and the sunny uplands are the equivalent of Rhyl. Yes, it's sunny, but there's also shit in the sea.

 

[bluejon]

Yes it would, but it wasn;t brexity enough for them.
However, had Labour's MP's voted to back May's deal, the actions of the ERG wouldn't have mattered at all, and the deal would have passed and we would have left earlier and BoJo's brexit would not have been a reality. Yes or no answer please.

Yes. But if the group that were formed to force brexit had voted for it, it would have also gone through. And they were from May's own party, proving what a treacherous bunch of cunts they are.

 

[Metal Biker]

Nope. We had Jeremy Fucking Corbyn in charge of the party we vote for. Yay us. What a set of choices that was.

He is one MP. You vote for your own representative.

Had you advised your own MP that although you were opposed to leaving the EU, it was a reality and democracy must be respected, therefore getting in a Labour Government and we'd have had a Labour Government negotiating our terms of leaving.

None of you did that, you wanted to oppose the act of leaving entirely, the general public got pissed off and voted either for the one party that advocated leaving the EU with a deal, or taking vital votes away to reduce Labour/Tory remainer influence in Parliament. Remember how well Change UK did?

Well done guys!

 

[west didsblue]

'Flaw.'
We're still seeing the same nonsense time and again, how on earth anyone can
predict yet another trade deal, this one with a large group, and immediately assume it will be flawed is beyond any reason. We will be discussing improved trading conditions, that's it, we won't be paying for the privilege, or joining a bloc with two parliaments, none of that.

We're talking about joining the CPTPP, not having a trade deal with them. If we do, unless you can point to another case, we'll be the only country in the world that will be a member of a regional trade bloc that is in a completely different region. I suspect there's a good reason why no other country in the world thinks it makes sense to do something like this. It's wibbling nonsense.

 

[BobKowalski]

Sorry Bob the conversation has moved on to 2016, I’ll have to come back to you on this

Surely, it’s regressed back to 2016, not moved on :)

 

[Metal Biker]

Yes. But if the group that were formed to force brexit had voted for it, it would have also gone through. And they were from May's own party, proving what a treacherous bunch of cunts they are.

ERG wanted a Brexitty brexit. Most just wanted to leave the EU with a deal.

May had a deal. You, your Remain MP's and the ERG were opposed to it, for obviously different reasons, but you were against it passing in Parlaiment. Are you and those like you therefore not as equally as responsible for not approving May's WA, and allowing the saga to drag on for a further 2 years, eventually resulting in a public backlash, a BoJo 80 seat majority, and BoJo brexit?

 

[blueparrot]

You do recall it was a straight in or out vote? It was only after the vote was lost did we start seeing the question reframed and “soft” brexit appearing as an apparent “option”. So no they weren’t “mega hardcore brexit nutters” were they?

Not true Farage was reframing it as we could be well off outside the eu with a Norway or Switzerland type deal before the vote. I wouldn't put a figure on it but would bet anything some that voted to leave thought we would be 'like Norway.
Of course you are also ignoring the fact some in the UK have a far softer Brexit than some of the rest of us. So which part of the UK ha the best Brexit in your opinion ?
So yes at the time Brexit was made harder than the majority of Mays government want by a handfull of hardcore nutters like Rees Mogg,Francois.Johnson and jumped onto that bandwaggon. That said Corbyn was just as much to blame.

 

[Metal Biker]

Anyway, good to see the conversation has moved on and evolved on here in the past few months and we're not rehashing old shit. Brexit is here, and the sunny uplands are the equivalent of Rhyl. Yes, it's sunny, but there's also shit in the sea.

Same as it ever was, except now we don't have to ask permission to change course.

 

[Metal Biker]

Not true Farage was reframing it as we could be well off outside the eu with a Norway or Switzerland type deal before the vote. I wouldn't put a figure on it but would bet anything some that voted to leave thought we would be 'like Norway.
Of course you are also ignoring the fact some in the UK have a far softer Brexit than some of the rest of us. So which part of the UK ha the best Brexit in your opinion ?
So yes at the time Brexit was made harder than the majority of Mays government want by a handfull of hardcore nutters like Rees Mogg,Francois.Johnson and jumped onto that bandwaggon. That said Corbyn was just as much to blame.

Why do you care what Farage has to say? Who outside of ERG types actually listened to him?

Oh yeah, remainers do. He's like your God or something.

 

[west didsblue]

TBF - this is where you get it repeatedly wrong - along with others

First and foremost the priority for the UK was to get out of the EU - everything else is a waaay lower priority

So nobody from the Leave side is comparing CPTTP with the EU or EFTA as some form of 'replacement'

You guys are indeed like the character in 'Groundhog day' - waking up everyday and starting afresh to consider how to convince people on a football forum we should never have left the EU

We are out - gone - and it seems never going back - in several decades at least

You are somewhere in the in the depths of the 7 stages of grief - a long way from acceptance

I'm not trying to convince anyone Brexit was a bad idea. The Brexit fans are almost cult like in their beliefs and no amount of evidence of real difficulties for numerous economic sectors will ever convince them that maybe it was the wrong thing to do. The discussion has moved on to discussing these difficulties and how best to address them. For the Brexiteers though, these difficulties are of little interest to them. It appears that their priority is to be the first country in the world to be a member of a regional trade bloc that's in another region, where we already have FTAs with quite a few of the members, so any benefits will be marginal and the obligations are unknown. Bizarre.

 

[Metal Biker]

Yes. But if the group that were formed to force brexit had voted for it, it would have also gone through. And they were from May's own party, proving what a treacherous bunch of cunts they are.

Right then. So the ERG's actions didn't matter.
Parliament votes through acts, not the Government and the opposition decided not to vote for May's WA either, making them equally as culpable.

This may have escaped your attention, but being a member of the same party does not automatically mean you approve of it's leader or Cabinet. Labour with Corbyn and now Starmer should be a case in point. :)

 

[blueparrot]

Why do you care what Farage has to say? Who outside of ERG types actually listened to him?

Oh yeah, remainers do. He's like your God or something.

So Farage didn't influence any voters ? either way It's still a fact a soft brexit option existed well before the vote, it's also still true Mays government would have gone for a softer brexit if not for the ERG.
You yourself were, and think still are an advocate of it with EFTA membership so it's logical to assume other leave voters were too.

 

[Metal Biker]

So Farage didn't influence any voters ? either way It's still a fact a soft brexit option existed well before the vote, it's also still true Mays government would have gone for a softer brexit if not for the ERG.
You yourself were, and think still are an advocate of it with EFTA membership so it's logical to assume other leave voters were too.

Some, sure but not everyone. In fact I think he influenced more people to vote for Remain than anything else just because they hated the frog-faced slime.

Yes a soft brexit option was available. DId you back it? Did you campaign for it? Did you fight long and hard to leave the EU with a softer deal?

No, you didn't. I did. I advocated EFTA from before the referendum was cast. But nooobody on remain was prepared to accept that compromise. It was "fuck brexit, remain at all costs". Imagine if remainers had pushed for the EFTA option and managed to convince others too.

It would have been ideal because if Farage announced he was against it, we could call up soundbites and quotes from when he WAS advocating joining EFTA instead. But you didn't want EFTA membership. You do NOW, but too little too late.

 

[blueparrot]

Some, sure but not everyone. In fact I think he influenced more people to vote for Remain than anything else just because they hated the frog-faced slime.

Yes a soft brexit option was available. DId you back it? Did you campaign for it? Did you fight long and hard to leave the EU with a softer deal?

No, you didn't. I did. I advocated EFTA from before the referendum was cast. But nooobody on remain was prepared to accept that comprise. It was "fuck brexit, remain at all costs".

Of course I didn't I didn't want to leave at all, and yes you did advocate EFTA from the start. Getting away from the post I answered now though and going over old ground. Point is as I was aying to @Metal Blue. the soft or hard Brexit option wasn't invented after the vote it existed before it too.

 

[BobKowalski]

I'm not trying to convince anyone Brexit was a bad idea. The Brexit fans are almost cult like in their beliefs and no amount of evidence of real difficulties for numerous economic sectors will ever convince them that maybe it was the wrong thing to do. The discussion has moved on to discussing these difficulties and how best to address them. For the Brexiteers though, these difficulties are of little interest to them. It appears that their priority is to be the first country in the world to be a member of a regional trade bloc that's in another region, where we already have FTAs with quite a few of the members, so any benefits will be marginal and the obligations are unknown. Bizarre.

‘In a trade bloc far, far away, a new hope has dawned. Cornish fishermen having struck a blow against the evil European Empire now find themselves cut adrift and have set sail to the sunlit uplands of the Pacific Rim, their holds full of rich marine bounty...’

 

[Metal Biker]

Of course I didn't I didn't want to leave at all, and yes you did advocate EFTA from the start. Getting away from the post I answered now though and going over old ground. Point is as I was aying to @Metal Blue. the soft or hard Brexit option wasn't invented after the vote it existed before it too.

It was merely discussed, it was never a voting option. Everyone was aware what a vote to leave meant. The StrongerIN Campaign even highlighted it meant leaving the Customs Union, leaving the Single Market and ending FoM. Vote Leave cited the same thing, but also stated we coudl renegotiate access. Farage advocated that leaving all these things was a positive.

The vote was made clear; it was only after a leave vote was confirmed that the discussion went from "if you vote leave, you vote to leave the SM, CU and FOM, and that's bad!" to "Right... leave won...how do we stay in the CU, SM and keep FOM?"

Erm, an EFTA membersh...?

"We MuSt FiGhT tO ReMaIn!!!"