The Conservative Party

BlueHammer85 said:
absolutely - Brexit is one of the biggest economic disasters I can think of

All I say was the pressure for Government in 2016 to implement the EU vote was big at the time, it wasn't just the Farage looneys, more and more people were demanding it

had we ignored their wishes, I can't imagine how strong the demand would be in the last couple years with economic turmoil from Covid and Russia being blamed on the EU, eventually sooner or later it would have gone to a vote.
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The public didn’t know what they were voting for, they didn’t understand what the ramifications would be on the economy being outside the largest trading block on the planet.

The Eu started a lot slower on vaccinations than the U.K. did but got there a lot more quicker than the U.K. did. I think the Russia situation has shown there is a lot more unity in Europe than people think to face a common enemy like Putin. He underestimated that and is the reason why his 4 day war is still going 8 months later.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Do you think the EU vote could have been denied forever ? The gammon Mob were whipping up so many millions of people, I can imagine they would pin recent economic troubles on the EU and people would be rioting for a vote by now - to me, it was always a matter of time
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Only thing I would say is I think the word 'mob' probably undersells how organised their campaign has been for maybe 30 odd years. Some of those they whipped up might be described as a mob but the architects of this were pretty effective in delivering what they were after until their wild arse theories eventually met reality. As with all zealots, especially greedy ones, they'll still be plotting now how they can turn this round/hide in the tall grass for a while and reappear. This is why it's important not only that we get some grownups in charge but that we get some kind of electoral reform to stop extremists taking over the country again.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
To what end? Other than secretly being a Leaver.
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Because he wanted to unify the Tories..... you have to ask yourself why the Tory Press was anti Eu for many many years before the referendum ... had the country voted remain the negative press would've continued. The Tories always wanted us out of the Eu and constantly told lies to facilitate that.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Because he wanted to unify the Tories..... you have to ask yourself why the Tory Press was anti Eu for many many years before the referendum ... had the country voted remain the negative press would've continued. The Tories always wanted us out of the Eu and constantly told lies to facilitate that.
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I don’t agree with your analysis. I accept he wanted to unify the Tories, but by settling the argument the other way. Your opinion thst the Tories are a unified group opposed to the EU simply doesn’t stand up to objective scrutiny.
 
threespires said:
Only thing I would say is I think the word 'mob' probably undersells how organised their campaign has been for maybe 30 odd years. Some of those they whipped up might be described as a mob but the architects of this were pretty effective in delivering what they were after until their wild arse theories eventually met reality. As with all zealots, especially greedy ones, they'll still be plotting now how they can turn this round/hide in the tall grass for a while and reappear. This is why it's important not only that we get some grownups in charge but that we get some kind of electoral reform to stop extremists taking over the country again.
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agreed, Cameron was up against it, the general public were being told economically we'd be better off, more money for the NHS, we'll control our borders and control our laws - all with a splash of patriotic fervour, anything negative happening was the fault of the EU, not the Government

It was very hard to argue against this rising tide - many millions wanted out at all costs, fingers in ears.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Because he wanted to unify the Tories..... you have to ask yourself why the Tory Press was anti Eu for many many years before the referendum ... had the country voted remain the negative press would've continued. The Tories always wanted us out of the Eu and constantly told lies to facilitate that.
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I think a specific wing of the Tory party wanted us out of the EU as a necessary step to enact their broader agenda. This wing aided by the press and other rich backers were able to use Cameron's complacency and incompetence to take control of the Tory party. I think what we witnessed was a textbook case of entryism.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Because he wanted to unify the Tories..... you have to ask yourself why the Tory Press was anti Eu for many many years before the referendum ... had the country voted remain the negative press would've continued. The Tories always wanted us out of the Eu and constantly told lies to facilitate that.
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I don't think this is true. The Tories campaigned in government to remain in the EU and it destroyed Cameron and it eventually destroyed May. The Tories literally fronted the big business element of remain. The remain campaign was mostly fronted by remain Tories with funding from Goldman Sachs.

The reason that the Tories are so divided is because they're completely split by big business remainers and analogue watches like Reese-Mogg who not only wanted Brexit but they want to go back to the Victorian ages. It's the latter that have infiltrated the party and are destroying it from within, it's why Jacob Reese-Mogg is in cabinet. People like Boris or Truss would never have him in but they had to appease that element of the party for support.

Ultimately though what has enabled them is the electorate who have consistently shown that they wanted Brexit above all else and it's allowed the hard right in. The end result is where we are now, the Tories were always divided on Brexit but now they're even more so because the fossils in the Tories actually do wield some power.

The only reason why Labour are looking so good right now is because they've already had their division exercise and most of the hefty dividing elements have been silenced or purged out of the party.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I don’t agree with your analysis. I accept he wanted to unify the Tories, but by settling the argument the other way. Your opinion thst the Tories are a unified group opposed to the EU simply doesn’t stand up to objective scrutiny.
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I don’t think he would have called for the vote if he seriously thought leave could win.

Complacency was remains biggest enemy, they had no strategy and as such were forced into the leave orbit for debating - its costs us £350m a week to be in the EU, oh no it doesn’t it only costs us £200m (or whatever the number was)… now all people know is it costs us money, not what we get for that money.
 
metalblue said:
I don’t think he would have called for the vote if he seriously thought leave could win.

Complacency was remains biggest enemy, they had no strategy and as such were forced into the leave orbit for debating - its costs us £350m a week to be in the EU, oh no it doesn’t it only costs us £200m (or whatever the number was)… now all people know is it costs us money, not what we get for that money.
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As I said in a post earlier this morning, his mistake wasn’t limited to calling the referendum. Him heading up the Remain campaign and the way it was conducted were also catastrophic errors.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I was thinking about Cameron the other day, and was wishing for a penny for his thoughts. His public utterances since the vote have been platitudes around the will of the people being expressed, but privately he must be horrified at what he’s unleashed. Whatever anyone’s thoughts on his politics, he’s far less prone than Johnson to self delusion and his legacy will be important to him (as it will to all politicians) which is now utterly destroyed.

The fundamental mistakes he made were threefold. Firstly, calling the referendum; secondly heading up the Remain campaign; thirdly, the listless and ineffectual way he ran that campaign.

Think he was right to resign though, and I don’t think it’s fair to characterise that as cowardice, especially given the grotesque way that Johnson clung on to power, and the way that Truss will too.

That’s a sideshow though. Up to that point, I actually thought he was a capable and sure footed politician, and I’ve been proved conspicuously and spectacularly wrong on that score. He made a series of judgement calls that have caused more damage to this country than any other in peacetime since industrialisation. He’s opened a box and unleadhed forces that simply cannot be contained and in the process divided that nation, caused the break up of the Union, hugely reduced our standing and reputation in the World and made us discernibly poorer.

What a legacy.
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The cowardice was pandering to the extremes in his party and farage rather than meeting them head on and putting them in their box from the start.

He ignored farage and then was so scared of losing an election allowed the lunatics to hold sway


He was a **** and resigning was his was of pontius pilating his way out if responsibility for his actions.
 
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
As I said in a post earlier this morning, his mistake wasn’t limited to calling the referendum. Him heading up the Remain campaign and the way it was conducted were also catastrophic errors.
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Have read your posts with interest but cannot imagine who else could’ve headed up the remain campaign; it surely had to be the incumbent prime minister. That the remain campaign was poorly run I accept, but years and years of setting the country, especially England, against the EU was always going to make it hard for the Conservatives and Cameron to make a convincing case for ‘the status quo’.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
As I said in a post earlier this morning, his mistake wasn’t limited to calling the referendum. Him heading up the Remain campaign and the way it was conducted were also catastrophic errors.
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Also the way the referedum was even set up: a straghtforward "Yes/No", a straightforward 50/50. that in itself aused years of fighting and politic/economic interita. At the very least, a path to leave the EU should have been already defined so that people were voting on that. And also a higher majority could have been negotiated.

Whilst I agree that Cameron will be secretly haunted and racked with guilt until the day he dies, the decision to trigger Article 50 (?) to actually start the leaving process without a plan or agreement was pretty fuckign catastrophic too. That was May.

All these decisions were basically forced by the same mob of zealots who were pushing people round in the lobby last night two weeks after crashing the economy. Ultimately they are the ones who caused all of this undoable chaos, with Bris Johnson and then Truss driving their gravy train until it fell straight off a cliff when it came out of the tunnel.

I'm hopeful those arseholes are now finished forever and I suspect they know it too. It's been nice to see the ashen face of Rees Mogg this last week or so.
 
It was a sham of a Remain Campaign. I tried to explain it to my grown up kids as follows. Imagine….
You want a clean break divorce but….
You are married to 27 people
Some you have kids with
Some you have step kids with
Some you own property with
Some you own businesses with
Some you owe money to
Some owe you money
Some you have investments with
Etc etc etc
Now tell me it’s going to be easy and that the instigator of the divorce will come out on top.
They all voted Remain.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Because he wanted to unify the Tories..... you have to ask yourself why the Tory Press was anti Eu for many many years before the referendum ... had the country voted remain the negative press would've continued. The Tories always wanted us out of the Eu and constantly told lies to facilitate that.
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No some tories wanted to stay in the EU but use it as a scapegoat for their own mistakes or issues that they ignored, or to win support from groups like the fishermen by going against European laws that they had agreed to.

A convenient boogeyman to distract the working class idiots that vote for the tories against their better interests.
 
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