VAR thread 2022/23

[bluealf]

Do incorrect red cards happen much in the lower leagues?

Otherwise he may change his mind the first time one of his goals is ruled out for an offside toenail........ :)

The officiating in the lower leagues is diabolical, in all aspects of the job.

 

[BlueHammer85]

That is entirely different to some matches having VAR and some not in the same competition.

One is related to accessing the spectacle of a given match based on who is playing, the other is quite literally having a different ruleset for a given match based on who is playing.

They are not remotely equivalent.

I was of course being slightly disingenuous

but personally, with or without VAR it is a level playing field, two teams v each other with the same rules applied albeit it is better officiated by having VAR of course :)

 

[SebastianBlue]

I was of course being slightly disingenuous

but personally, with or without VAR it is a level playing field, two teams v each other with the same rules applied albeit it is better officiated by having VAR of course :)

So you feel teams playing in matches that have VAR are advantaged with better, more accurate officiating, relative to teams playing in matches without VAR (i.e. teams without VAR are more likely to be on the end of incorrect decisions that could impact the outcome of the match)?

 

[BlueHammer85]

So you feel teams playing in matches that have VAR are advantaged with better, more accurate officiating, relative to teams playing in matches without VAR (i.e. teams without VAR are more likely to be on the end of incorrect decisions that could impact the outcome of the match)?

Yes. so I don't mind the argument that all games should have VAR or not at all , but it's not something I'll get mad about as without VAR it's same for both teams and same for all lowers leagues etc

Suspect it wont be long till all cup competitions have VAR , these things take time.

 

[Stephen230]

If you applied this argument to all competitions governed by the FA then you would have thousands of amateur cups all over the country that currently have a referee only, in the early rounds, who wouldn’t be able to have linesman in the latter stages, as they currently do.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Yes. so I don't mind the argument that all games should have VAR or not at all , but it's not something I'll get mad about as without VAR it's same for both teams and same for all lowers leagues etc

Suspect it wont be long till all cup competitions have VAR , these things take time.

But it's not the same for all teams in the competition, which means some teams benefits from the substantially more accurate and consistent officiating (what those that support the current iteration of VAR believe is the case), meaning the competition itself is not an equal playing field.

Lower league teams (already disadvantaged), if they progress through the competition, will more regularly not have the benefit of VAR (due to the format of the competitions in question), whilst the higher league teams (already advantaged) will more often have the benefit of VAR, proportional to their participation.

If VAR does actually lead to fewer incorrect decisions that can potentially impact outcomes of matches, then not having VAR disadvantages teams playing without it.

And, regardless, the ruleset with VAR is different to the ruleset with VAR (officiating behaviour changes with or without, as well), which makes the practice out of step with the standards of fair competition.

I don't quite understand people on one hand zealously arguing the superiority of officiating with VAR (versus without) then on the other hand arguing that it doesn't matter if every match in a discrete competition has VAR.

If you applied this argument to all competitions governed by the FA then you would have thousands of amateur cups all over the country that currently have a referee only, in the early rounds, who wouldn’t be able to have linesman in the latter stages, as they currently do.

People have been--rightly--arguing that for ages, because it means officiating is fundamentally different depending on the stage of the competition. And no one can reasonably argue that such a state *does not* contravene standards of fair competition.

Again, what is (due to resource constraints) is different to what should be (truly fair state).

Teams have accepted this "unfair" state in various amateur cups, but they would be much happier with the far more "fair" state of consistent level of officiating for every match within the competition.

This entire discussion is about how we can achieve a more "fair" state of competition, so the fact that other "unfair" states of competition exist elsewhere is not an argument against that effort toward progress.

Otherwise we'd have to accept the lack of fairness in any aspect of human existence to be a justification for unfairness to exist in every aspect.

 

[Stephen230]

I don’t really agree it isn’t “fair” having different levels of officiating in different games. I can understand why people would want, in an ideal world, to have the same criteria for every game but as long as every game is officiated fairly, I don’t think it’s a problem for the integrity of the competition.

Teams in the first qualifying round of the FA Cup could argue it’s not fair that they got some big fat lorry driver refereeing their game while matches later in the competition were refereed by FIFA accredited officials.

What I can say for certain is if the final at Wembley was decided by a goal that was a yard off side or came off the scorers hand, there would be an awful lot of people saying it’s a ridiculous state of affairs that the VAR equipment wasn’t used.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I don’t really agree it isn’t “fair” having different levels of officiating in different games. I can understand why people would want, in an ideal world, to have the same criteria for every game but as long as every game is officiated fairly, I don’t think it’s a problem for the integrity of the competition.

Teams in the first qualifying round of the FA Cup could argue it’s not fair that they got some big fat lorry driver refereeing their game while matches later in the competition were refereed by FIFA accredited officials.

What I can say for certain is if the final at Wembley was decided by a goal that was a yard off side or came off the scorers hand, there would be an awful lot of people saying it’s a ridiculous state of affairs that the VAR equipment wasn’t used.

I think it is "fair" to say if we have different notions of the standards of fair competition, and what achieving a more fair state of competition entails, then we will likely disagree on most things regarding this VAR (and the greater officiating) debate.

Also, it would be helpful if you would reply to my posts when replying to my posts.

 

[Stephen230]

I think it is "fair" to say if we have different notions of the standards of fair competition, and what achieving a more fair state of competition entails, then we will likely disagree on most things regarding this VAR (and the greater officiating) debate.

Also, it would be helpful if you would reply to my posts when replying to my posts.

I wasn’t specifically replying to your post. I was just giving an opinion on a subject that multiple people have been discussing in the thread.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I wasn’t specifically replying to your post. I was just giving an opinion on a subject that multiple people have been discussing in the thread.

Ok.

What about a comprise approach, whereby *only* the final has VAR?

 

[stonerblue]

If you applied this argument to all competitions governed by the FA then you would have thousands of amateur cups all over the country that currently have a referee only, in the early rounds, who wouldn’t be able to have linesman in the latter stages, as they currently do.

Yet another reason var is shite

 

[Stephen230]

Ok.

What about a comprise approach, whereby *only* the final has VAR?

Personally speaking, I’m pretty easy going on whatever they want to do. Scrap VAR completely tomorrow and it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest.

Specifically on your suggested compromise? The fact is when you’ve got a competition where some grounds can vacillate VAR and others can’t, as we have, then there isn’t a single solution that wouldn’t draw criticism from some. If they went with your plan and there was controversy in one of the semis, the same arguments would apply.

As long as they set out the rules before the competition starts and stick with it, I’m happy enough though.

 

[Pingu the Penguin]

To be fair, I recall officiating accuracy being regularly reported as 90+% prior to VAR being implemented. Which would be expected, as they wouldn’t be reporting that about 1 out of every 5 decisions are incorrect, would they. Especially given they had been resisting implementing video review for decades after it had been used and continually refined elsewhere in the world.

It’s fairly common for past data points to be revised when an entity needs to provide proof of efficacy for a new policy. Happens all the time in non-sport industry. In fact, there’s an entire industry built up to support such endeavours.

I know, because I used to audit it. ;-)



*44% of those that have responded. It’s probably not actually 44%, though.

I've also seen the 90%+ pre VAR stats. If you google there's some stuff from around 2015 on it. I found a while ago (but can't now) a blog from someone who dug into it. In a nutshell, his view was that the 90 odd percent figure counted every decision (eg obvious ones like throw ins, etc) but if you drilled down into "big decisions" the accuracy was much lower. Including all decisions into a global number gave the impression of considerable accuracy. He also made the same argument about the VAR is 99% correct stats too.

 

[BlueHammer85]

What I can say for certain is if the final at Wembley was decided by a goal that was a yard off side or came off the scorers hand, there would be an awful lot of people saying it’s a ridiculous state of affairs that the VAR equipment wasn’t used.

out of curiosity - would you be one of them ?

 

[Grassland Blue]

That's no explanation. Why did Madley have to tell the linesman to raise his flag? Had he forgotten to do it?

What was that film? Truly, Madeley, Badly or something...?

 

[Stephen230]

out of curiosity - would you be one of them ?

As I said previously, as long as the rules are set out pre tournament and aren’t changed, I wouldn’t have any complaints.

But yeah, if there was an obvious referee mistake that resulted in the winning goal, I’d probably think it a bit silly that they didn’t use the technology they had available.

 

[danielwood5]

Robertson was sent off against Spurs in December 2021.

For one of his trademark late'n'high attempts too, impressive refereeing there. It's a shame that standard hasn't continued and he hasn't been called out and sanctioned for his repeated violent play since then.
That one red card he received in the VAR era had definitely passed me by though, it's one more than he received in the pre VAR days though so it's definitely improving the standard of refereeing throughout the game.

 

[GornikDaze]

People confuse having a different opinion for being a troll

12 years I’ve been here and never had a ban

For some of your music threads you should’ve had several bans! ;)

 

[inchy14]

People confuse having a different opinion for being a troll

12 years I’ve been here and never had a ban

Not even for that album thread?? Fuck me, @Moderating Team walk the fuck up.

 

[inchy14]

I don't think it is deliberate. Referees patrol a certain diagonal path - normally, or possibly exclusively these days with their assistants running on right wings. It really isn't in their best interest to disrupt play. It would reflect in their assessments, marks, professionalism, and indeed could jeopardise their chances of being awarded prestigious games. They have to be somewhere on the pitch. Sometimes this means being in the way of the ball.

I’ve tried telling this to people before but you’re wasting your breath mate.