VAR thread 2022/23

[its grim up north]

Well he clearly wasn’t just a few yards in City’s half. But anyway, if the linesman had got his initial thoughts wrong and Rashford was onside, then he had a clear run at goal from a central position, with just the ‘keeper to beat. So yes, it was by any reasonable person’s opinion, an immediate goal scoring opportunity, if he’d been onside. Which is a textbook example of a linesman using the delayed flag as it’s intended.

I say bullshit.

 

[Colin Bells Boots]

Well in the last few days courtesy of VAR and PiGMOL's referees , we have watched Wolves get robbed of a place in the cup and the rags " assisted" in getting 3 points they did not deserve .

So obviously there is no conspiracy by PiGMOL and the PL/ FA towards ensuring that the two teams who have the biggest numbers of followers , and thereby provide the biggest revenue streams for the two football authorities , get undeserved results, and it is the supporters of other clubs who are cynical and jealous of the "favoured outcomes " for both the rags and dippers.

And those who say corruption and manipulation are behind the outcomes are simply paranoid .

Supporters of other clubs are being regularly shafted for the sake of the favoured two imo although my opinion can simply be dismissed as jealousy and cynicism.

 

[Cassandra]

Well he clearly wasn’t just a few yards in City’s half. But anyway, if the linesman had got his initial thoughts wrong and Rashford was onside, then he had a clear run at goal from a central position, with just the ‘keeper to beat. So yes, it was by any reasonable person’s opinion, an immediate goal scoring opportunity, if he’d been onside. Which is a textbook example of a linesman using the delayed flag as it’s intended.

I can buy that as far as if goes but what did Cann say to Fernandes, before speaking face-to-face with Atwell, that left Fernandes turning away with a big grin on his face?

 

[Cassandra]

Horrendous decision aside, this picture just reinforces my opinion that Rashford is thick as mince as a footballer and VASTLY over-rated.

But apparently brighter than the referee?

 

[Indaparkside]

Footballs like the bible different things added to it every year

 

[halfcenturyup]

Footballs like the bible different things added to it every year

The gospel according to BlueHammer85.

 

[Stephen230]

I can buy that as far as if goes but what did Cann say to Fernandes, before speaking face-to-face with Atwell, that left Fernandes turning away with a big grin on his face?

Well obviously I don’t know. But if that’s what happened then a guess would be that the referee had already told the linesman he was giving the goal over comms.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Well he clearly wasn’t just a few yards in City’s half. But anyway, if the linesman had got his initial thoughts wrong and Rashford was onside, then he had a clear run at goal from a central position, with just the ‘keeper to beat. So yes, it was by any reasonable person’s opinion, an immediate goal scoring opportunity, if he’d been onside. Which is a textbook example of a linesman using the delayed flag as it’s intended.

Reposting my analysis to a different similar comment as a response to your post.

It has to be an immediate goal scoring opportunity i.e. Kev plays a ball through the middle for Erl to run on to on the edge of the box with no defender in sight. If the liner thinks it is a tight call then the flag should stay down. In Foden's case I think both balls (I may be wrong) were sent out wide, some distance from the goal and therefore there wasn't an immediate goal scoring opportunity.

Both of them would have had Foden in behind the United defender in the box and who is to say a chance couldn’t have come from either (though, one was obviously offside, but we know that doesn’t really matter now)? One was very tight, so why did the flag immediately go up?

As far as goal scoring opportunity playing a part, are linesman now doing xG calculations before deciding whether to raise their flag for offside? What is the xG threshold for immediate flag raise versus delayed flag raise? Who set the the threshold? Are they doing it in their heads or is someone confirming it in their ear the moment the potential offside is identified?

And, in the case of the United equaliser, it wasn’t tight, nor was it an immediate goal scoring opportunity (xG from his position when the ball was played forward is slightly higher than 0.00). Rashford was well off from the moment the pass was played, not even in our final third when he was offside, so why was the flag delayed until after Rashford had run 20 yards over the ball and Fernandes swept in to put it in the back of the net?

In fact, at no point was it a particularly great goal scoring opportunity, except that all three of our players were defending a ghost offside player who had possession of the ball. Really, there is no goal scoring opportunity if Rashford is not allowed to run over the ball, as either Akanji or Eddie easily clear it before Fernandes arrives.

Fernandes even shoots from outside and almost dead centre of the box which is a relatively low xG position.

Foden’s position for both of his immediate offside calls would have much higher xG.

Nothing about the officiating during the match makes much sense outside of specific potential frameworks of utter incompetence or outright manipulation.

 

[Stephen230]

Reposting my analysis to a different similar comment as a response to your post.


Both of them would have had Foden in behind the United defender in the box and who is to say a chance couldn’t have come from either (though, one was obviously offside, but we know that doesn’t really matter now)? One was very tight, so why did the flag immediately go up?

As far as goal scoring opportunity playing a part, are linesman now doing xG calculations before deciding whether to raise their flag for offside? What is the xG threshold for immediate flag raise versus delayed flag raise? Who set the the threshold? Are they doing it in their heads or is someone confirming it in their ear the moment the potential offside is identified?

And, in the case of the United equaliser, it wasn’t tight, nor was it an immediate goal scoring opportunity (xG from his position when the ball was played forward is slightly higher than 0.00). Rashford was well off from the moment the pass was played, not even in our final third when he was offside, so why was the flag delayed until after Rashford had run 20 yards over the ball and Fernandes swept in to put it in the back of the net?

In fact, at no point was it a particularly great goal scoring opportunity, except that all three of our players were defending a ghost offside player who had possession of the ball. Really, there is no goal scoring opportunity if Rashford is not allowed to run over the ball, as either Akanji or Eddie easily clear it before Fernandes arrives.

Fernandes even shoots from outside and almost dead centre of the box which is a relatively low xG position.

Foden’s position for both of his immediate offside calls would have much higher xG.

Nothing about the officiating during the match makes much sense outside of specific potential frameworks of utter incompetence or outright manipulation.

Nobody can say a chance wouldn’t have come from Foden’s. But that’s not what delayed flags are supposed to be about. They’re for when an offside has been identified but there is an immediate goal scoring opportunity. Which Rashford’s was, as he had a clean run at goal with just the goalkeeper in front of him. And Foden’s weren’t as he was out on the touchline with no immediate threat to goal.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Nobody can say a chance wouldn’t have come from Foden’s. But that’s not what delayed flags are supposed to be about. They’re for when an offside has been identified but there is an immediate goal scoring opportunity. Which Rashford’s was, as he had a clean run at goal with just the goalkeeper in front of him. And Foden’s weren’t as he was out on the touchline with no immediate threat to goal.

Foden’s offsides were both in higher xG positions than United’s “goal”, nearly all the way through the sequence (one of them entirely).

And, again, I ask: how are linesman now determining when a possible offside sequence has a sufficiently high xG (goal scoring opportunity value) to warrant an immediate flag or a delayed flag?

Not to mention Rashford was very obviously offside—it wasn’t even a close call, so why would there be a delayed flag, when those are only meant for tight calls with a “obvious” goal scoring opportunity (however that is defined)?

If anything, Foden’s offside incidents better fit the criteria for a delayed flag than the Rashford sequence.

As I said before, you are grasping at straws to try to explain inconsistencies in the application of the offside rule by the same linesman in the match.

And I am not entirely sure why. What do you gain, as a purported blue, by shilling for either an incompetent or a bent officiating team, as you seemingly do every time there is a nonsensical decision?

Are you secretly a member of PGMOL? Do you just enjoy being contrarian?

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Reposting my analysis to a different similar comment as a response to your post.


Both of them would have had Foden in behind the United defender in the box and who is to say a chance couldn’t have come from either (though, one was obviously offside, but we know that doesn’t really matter now)? One was very tight, so why did the flag immediately go up?

As far as goal scoring opportunity playing a part, are linesman now doing xG calculations before deciding whether to raise their flag for offside? What is the xG threshold for immediate flag raise versus delayed flag raise? Who set the the threshold? Are they doing it in their heads or is someone confirming it in their ear the moment the potential offside is identified?

And, in the case of the United equaliser, it wasn’t tight, nor was it an immediate goal scoring opportunity (xG from his position when the ball was played forward is slightly higher than 0.00). Rashford was well off from the moment the pass was played, not even in our final third when he was offside, so why was the flag delayed until after Rashford had run 20 yards over the ball and Fernandes swept in to put it in the back of the net?

In fact, at no point was it a particularly great goal scoring opportunity, except that all three of our players were defending a ghost offside player who had possession of the ball. Really, there is no goal scoring opportunity if Rashford is not allowed to run over the ball, as either Akanji or Eddie easily clear it before Fernandes arrives.

Fernandes even shoots from outside and almost dead centre of the box which is a relatively low xG position.

Foden’s position for both of his immediate offside calls would have much higher xG.

Nothing about the officiating during the match makes much sense outside of specific potential frameworks of utter incompetence or outright manipulation.

But refs 'n linos don't bother about fuck all except who is gonna score and who is gonna concede. The application of the LotG don't enter into it!

I'd like to hear verbatim the conversation that passed between lino and Attwell. I would expect the outcome was a modification of the laws or an application of them that fitted a preferred outcome. Similarly, I would like the opportunity to glance over a transcription of conversations between ref, lino and VAR that robbed Wolves of a cup win at Anfield. If we ever got to hear the conversations there would be sufficient scope to suggest that the LotG are being modified on a game to game basis.

 

[bluemanchester]

Reposting my analysis to a different similar comment as a response to your post.


Both of them would have had Foden in behind the United defender in the box and who is to say a chance couldn’t have come from either (though, one was obviously offside, but we know that doesn’t really matter now)? One was very tight, so why did the flag immediately go up?

As far as goal scoring opportunity playing a part, are linesman now doing xG calculations before deciding whether to raise their flag for offside? What is the xG threshold for immediate flag raise versus delayed flag raise? Who set the the threshold? Are they doing it in their heads or is someone confirming it in their ear the moment the potential offside is identified?

And, in the case of the United equaliser, it wasn’t tight, nor was it an immediate goal scoring opportunity (xG from his position when the ball was played forward is slightly higher than 0.00). Rashford was well off from the moment the pass was played, not even in our final third when he was offside, so why was the flag delayed until after Rashford had run 20 yards over the ball and Fernandes swept in to put it in the back of the net?

In fact, at no point was it a particularly great goal scoring opportunity, except that all three of our players were defending a ghost offside player who had possession of the ball. Really, there is no goal scoring opportunity if Rashford is not allowed to run over the ball, as either Akanji or Eddie easily clear it before Fernandes arrives.

Fernandes even shoots from outside and almost dead centre of the box which is a relatively low xG position.

Foden’s position for both of his immediate offside calls would have much higher xG.

Nothing about the officiating during the match makes much sense outside of specific potential frameworks of utter incompetence or outright manipulation.

A really good post with pictures and graphics as well to really highlight the inept/corrupt decision, well done. But PYGMOL and their ex refs on tv are using the term subjective. What this really means is refs can choose which laws to play with and which laws to disregard at their discretion, which in turn will depend on where the match is played.

 

[SebastianBlue]

But refs 'n linos don't bother about fuck all except who is gonna score and who is gonna concede. The application of the LotG don't enter into it!

I'd like to hear verbatim the conversation that passed between lino and Attwell. I would expect the outcome was a modification of the laws or an application of them that fitted a preferred outcome. Similarly, I would like the opportunity to glance over a transcription of conversations between ref, lino and VAR that robbed Wolves of a cup win at Anfield. If we ever got to hear the conversations there would be sufficient scope to suggest that the LotG are being modified on a game to game basis.

Yes, until they make live (not edited after the match) audio available to fans, the integrity of officiating will continue to be questioned, especially after calls like the recent ones that clearly benefited United And Liverpool.

A really good post with pictures and graphics as well to really highlight the inept/corrupt decision, well done. But PYGMOL and their ex refs on tv are using the term subjective. What this really means is refs can choose which laws to play with and which laws to disregard at their discretion, which in turn will depend on where the match is played.

Agreed. The way they have chosen to implement (and modify, which is the really suspect bit) VAR with very low amounts of transparency (in some cases for no discernible need or reason) and higher than necessary amounts of subjectivity (the “clear and obvious error” threshold essentially maximise the freedom of variable decision making with same or similar incidents), along with the way the rules have been continually revised, and the manner officials and the league are largely protected from any consequences for “mistakes” in the application of the LotG or failures of the support technologies, allows for the opportunity for manipulation.

If the league and PGMOL really wanted to substantially improve the fan perception of officiating they could make some fairly straightforward (and near no cost) changes.

But they seemingly refuse to do so.

And, again, the question has to be asked: why?

 

[Stephen230]

Foden’s offsides were both in higher xG positions than United’s “goal”, nearly all the way through the sequence (one of them entirely).

And, again, I ask: how are linesman now determining when a possible offside sequence has a sufficiently high xG (goal scoring opportunity value) to warrant an immediate flag or a delayed flag?

Not to mention Rashford was very obviously offside—it wasn’t even a close call, so why would there be a delayed flag, when those are only meant for tight calls with a “obvious” goal scoring opportunity (however that is defined)?

If anything, Foden’s offside incidents better fit the criteria for a delayed flag than the Rashford sequence.

As I said before, you are grasping at straws to try to explain inconsistencies in the application of the offside rule by the same linesman in the match.

And I am not entirely sure why. What do you gain, as a purported blue, by shilling for either an incompetent or a bent officiating team, as you seemingly do every time there is a nonsensical decision?

Are you secretly a member of PGMOL? Do you just enjoy being contrarian?

I’ve explained three times why I think the linesman wasn’t at fault for the goal. You clearly don’t agree. Obviously the only explanation as to why I don’t agree with you and your irrelevant XG charts are that I’m a secret Pgmol member or a ‘purported’ City fan. Take your pick mate. I’ll be whichever one makes you happier.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I’ve explained three times why I think the linesman wasn’t at fault for the goal. You clearly don’t agree. Obviously the only explanation as to why I don’t agree with you and your irrelevant XG charts are that I’m a secret Pgmol member or a ‘purported’ City fan. Take your pick mate. I’ll be whichever one makes you happier.

Ok. I look forward to your future defences of other nonsensical officiating.

 

[SebastianBlue]

POLL RESULTS

Would VAR be substantially improved by live officiating team comms being made available to fans?​

• Yes ✓​

  Votes: 288 | 91.7%

• No​

  Votes: 26 | 8.3%

---

• Total voters 314

 

[KentBlue]

Looks pretty conclusive to me.

 

[its a Barm]

Why was there not a vote for, fuck it off all together.

 

[babyape]

But apparently brighter than the referee?

It seems the ref was very clever to act swiftly to over rule the liner and take VAR out of the question.....

 

[halfcenturyup]

The whole thing is a pig's breakfast.

Too much subjectivity on the one hand making calls inexplicable to the fan, too much precision on the other hand leading to offences that no fan can see in real time and too much inconsistency between offences. And, of course, too many hopeless referees.

How many examples do you want from one incident? Let's choose one. Oh yes, Fernandes' goal at the weekend. Akanji sees Rashford moving off side and traps him perfectly a yard offside and so is behind him when no flag. But did Rashford affect Akanji at all? Naaah. Walker has to try to cover Rashford, leaving Fernandes. But did Rashford affect Walker at all? Naah. Ederson has to position himself for a Rashford shot. But did Rashford affect Ederson at all? You shepherd the ball out of play and as long as the ball is in reach, you have control. No obstruction. But does Rashford have control of the ball when he runs with it in reach when he is offside? Naah. And the crowning turd in the water tank, if Ederson comes out to meet Rashford and slices a clearance then Rashford is onside again. It's insane. I swear if I hear anything about subjectivity or protocol again my head will explode.

It's all just a big fucking mess.