England wasting one of the most talented squads ever assembled on Southgate

[Pell]

Pep, arguably one of the best managers ever, has won the CL after 7 attempts - falling at the QF, SF and final stage previously.

England under Southgate has competed in 3 major tournaments (WC 2018/2022, Euro 2020) and fallen at SF, QF and final stage.

Now, I am not for one second suggesting that Southgate is remotely as good a manager as Pep but there seems to be some double standards on here. If Southgate has underachieved in 3 competitions, has Pep underachieved in the previous 6?

Winning knockout tournaments is hard, and involves a degree of luck as well as skill sometimes (which City fans should be all too aware of!).

Good post. I would also add that England weren't exactly favourites going into any of those tournaments. 2018? The previous World Cup they got knocked out the group stage and two years previously got knocked out the Euro's by Iceland. The likes of Phil Jones, Lingard, and Ruben Loftus-Cheek made the squad! 2020 they had the benefit of home advantage, but it still wasn't a team in brilliant form going in like Italy were. 2022 they arrived off the back of being relegated in the Nations League, and got knocked out by the finalists and defending champions, hardly a disgrace. Now, I don't believe Southgate is some kind of genius, neither do I think he's some complete dullard who wouldn't know a football if it whacked him in the face. I just think the punch bag reputation he's earned is pretty harsh.

 

[Bluesince1979]

An international coach only gets to work with the players for a fraction of the time that their club coaches do, so they have a limited opportunity to achieve things and get them playing the way they want. I have no idea how Southgate would fare as a PL manager but (a bit controversial perhaps) I actually think Pep might struggle as an international manager as he wouldn't get enough time with the players. We've seen how long it can take some players to adapt to his system even in a club environment.

Well i can tell you how he’d do as a league coach. Crap. Ask Boro

 

[Johnny Mars Bar]

Pep, arguably one of the best managers ever, has won the CL after 7 attempts - falling at the QF, SF and final stage previously.

England under Southgate has competed in 3 major tournaments (WC 2018/2022, Euro 2020) and fallen at SF, QF and final stage.

Now, I am not for one second suggesting that Southgate is remotely as good a manager as Pep but there seems to be some double standards on here. If Southgate has underachieved in 3 competitions, has Pep underachieved in the previous 6?

Winning knockout tournaments is hard, and involves a degree of luck as well as skill sometimes (which City fans should be all too aware of!).

Building Southgate up to be the best thing since 66 only to take twisted delight in knocking him down again. England all over that.

It’s fucking pathetic isn’t it.

Southgate isn’t a football genius but he’s done a decent job. A better job than any other England manager in my lifetime anyway.

 

[Stephen230]

You cant judge him against pub teams which most of the qualifiers are. I would like to thing a English team of championship players could beat most of these.

Southgate is not of the level to coach our lads. Hence he doesnt know how to use Foden. TAA in midfield ahead of Foden, southgate should just for that .

No fan of Southgate but bit harsh to call the team who’ve knocked the current European Champions out of the last two World Cups, a pub team.

 

[Ithryn Luin]

Perhaps we've come across the actual problem?

I've just told you that in the 100 year history of English football before Southgate the team had won 9 knockout matches and your reaction is that you expected him to win 6 so they don't matter.

Keep going with your happy clapping! This is the best and most talented squad of players at our disposal since 1970. And like Ramsey in the 1970 QF we have a manager whose in game management is none existent! That is why we lose the big ones that matters! Hodgson and Eriksson were both the same, being out guiled by their opposition.

 

[ysmsa]

Pep, arguably one of the best managers ever, has won the CL after 7 attempts - falling at the QF, SF and final stage previously.

England under Southgate has competed in 3 major tournaments (WC 2018/2022, Euro 2020) and fallen at SF, QF and final stage.

Now, I am not for one second suggesting that Southgate is remotely as good a manager as Pep but there seems to be some double standards on here. If Southgate has underachieved in 3 competitions, has Pep underachieved in the previous 6?

Winning knockout tournaments is hard, and involves a degree of luck as well as skill sometimes (which City fans should be all too aware of!).

Wind up surely!

Pep has won the PL repeatedly which is arguably harder to win than a Euro Cup competition, plus numerous domestic cups.

England are crap, play crap, they come up against a half decent and organised team and fail.

Any manager would have achieved what Southgate has achieved, no other manager would have achieved what Pep has.

Take Klopp for example, his teams and management stye are lauded when they do well, followed by an anonymous season where they are shit.

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

I don't think Southgate should be judged for not winning World Cups. I think most managers would fail at that.

He should be judged for his style of play and how fun England are to watch, given most of our time watching England play is more recreational than competitive.

And if you think England are fun to watch... well fair enough, but personally I'd rather spend the time doing the dishes.

 

[Gremlin]

Wind up surely!

Pep has won the PL repeatedly which is arguably harder to win than a Euro Cup competition, plus numerous domestic cups.

England are crap, play crap, they come up against a half decent and organised team and fail.

Any manager would have achieved what Southgate has achieved, no other manager would have achieved what Pep has.

Take Klopp for example, his teams and management stye are lauded when they do well, followed by an anonymous season where they are shit.

Not a wind up. The PL (or any league competition) is a very different animal to a knockout cup competition. Over 38 games the best teams will almost always win, but in a knockout tournament teams can get a lucky draw/run (does anyone think that Chelsea was actually the best team in Europe when they won it in 2012? they came 6th in the PL!). Hence why City under Pep has been so successful in the PL - because we can all agree they are the best and quality will out over 38 games.

However, what I was doing was comparing records in major knockout cup competitions (i.e. at least on a superficial level trying to compare apples with apples) and and asking for consistency in assessment of the results. I very clearly said I wasn't suggesting Southgate was as good at Pep!

PS: if 'any other manager' would have done what Southgate has, why haven't they? He is still has the best results as an England manager in 50 years and that's just stating a fact.

 

[citytill1die84]

Pep, arguably one of the best managers ever, has won the CL after 7 attempts - falling at the QF, SF and final stage previously.

England under Southgate has competed in 3 major tournaments (WC 2018/2022, Euro 2020) and fallen at SF, QF and final stage.

Now, I am not for one second suggesting that Southgate is remotely as good a manager as Pep but there seems to be some double standards on here. If Southgate has underachieved in 3 competitions, has Pep underachieved in the previous 6?

Winning knockout tournaments is hard, and involves a degree of luck as well as skill sometimes (which City fans should be all too aware of!).

International football vs League football mmmm

Pep has 4 competitions to compete in across 60 games not 10.

 

[supercity88]

Keep going with your happy clapping! This is the best and most talented squad of players at our disposable since 1970. And like Ramsey in the 1970 QF we have a manager whose in game management is none existent! That is why we lose the big ones that matters! Hodgson and Eriksson were both the same, being out guiled by their opposition.

This "best squad since" nonsense has been said for as long as I can remember. This squad isn't a patch on those in the early-mid 2000s. We've got Stones, Kane and Walker who you'd say are world class. There are many players who are emerging talents with the potential to reach those heights - Foden, Saka, Bellingham, Rice but this squad isn't a patch on those with the likes of Owen, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole who were all in the top 10 in the world in their positions.

 

[Ithryn Luin]

This "best squad since" nonsense has been said for as long as I can remember. This squad isn't a patch on those in the early-mid 2000s. We've got Stones, Kane and Walker who you'd say are world class. There are many players who are emerging talents with the potential to reach those heights - Foden, Saka, Bellingham, Rice but this squad isn't a patch on those with the likes of Owen, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole who were all in the top 10 in the world in their positions.

I beg to differ. I used to watch those players you name give the ball away time after time when playing in an England shirt.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

Keep going with your happy clapping! This is the best and most talented squad of players at our disposal since 1970. And like Ramsey in the 1970 QF we have a manager whose in game management is none existent! That is why we lose the big ones that matters! Hodgson and Eriksson were both the same, being out guiled by their opposition.

It's not really happy clapping though is it. It's facts tbf.

I mean if you look at the facts he's our most successful manager since 66.

If anything its haters rather than happy clappers that seem to be the odd ones.

Respect to your opinion though, as long as its not personal hatred above recognising a successful manager. (Compared with who has managed England before, and 90% of other international managers whom he has been better than)

I'm no supporter of him, his style is too pragmatic, it gets results though and having watched England since 86 I'm enjoying the success we're finally having.

 

[supercity88]

I beg to differ. I used to watch those players you name give the ball away time after time when playing in an England shirt.

You can't beg to differ with facts. They were world class players who didn't perform for England because....you guessed it, the manager's weren't good enough to find a system for them to perform in or get any togetherness from the squad.

Southgate has addressed that. You don't have City players rocking up and refusing to speak to those from other teams. Even though Foden and Grealish are part of a treble winning side you don't get them refusing to turn up for England duty or whingeing about not playing.

And you can't tell me that this England squad is better than the one I listed. Who are the world class talents? Stones, Walker and Kane. Bellingham, Foden, Saka and Rice have that potential but simply aren't at that level yet. If you took the England squad I listed you'd struggle to get many of the current squad into that 11.

 

[KentBlue]

Many people feel the same way as I do: Southgate's tactics just stifle the life out of the creative players. It's dull, it's tepid, and it's safety-first all the time.
Sure, he's done okay(ish), but personally I just could not sit through 90 minutes of his soul-destroying 'pass-sideways-or-backwards' tactic.

 

[Gremlin]

Many people feel the same way as I do: Southgate's tactics just stifle the life out of the creative players. It's dull, it's tepid, and it's safety-first all the time.
Sure, he's done okay(ish), but personally I just could not sit through 90 minutes of his soul-destroying 'pass-sideways-or-backwards' tactic.

If the best results in 50 years is 'okay(ish)' you are clearly a tough person to satisfy!

If England managed to win the Euros or World Cup (even if by a fluke) then there won't be many people saying that the victory doesn't mean anything to them because they didn't like the style of football.

So, to be clear, the bar for calling Southgate as success is not only to win a major tournament but he must also do it whilst playing attractive football? Anything else is failure. Glad I don't have the job.

 

[Ithryn Luin]

You can't beg to differ with facts. They were world class players who didn't perform for England because....you guessed it, the manager's weren't good enough to find a system for them to perform in or get any togetherness from the squad.

Southgate has addressed that. You don't have City players rocking up and refusing to speak to those from other teams. Even though Foden and Grealish are part of a treble winning side you don't get them refusing to turn up for England duty or whingeing about not playing.

And you can't tell me that this England squad is better than the one I listed. Who are the world class talents? Stones, Walker and Kane. Bellingham, Foden, Saka and Rice have that potential but simply aren't at that level yet. If you took the England squad I listed you'd struggle to get many of the current squad into that 11.

Have to agree to disagree then. Those you list would not get in todays City team. Thankfully todays England players are nearly all comfortable on the ball in possession. Ok I will agree that there is none of the clique culture today but again that was down to the rotten personalities of those players back then. I did not think any of those players you listed were "world class".

 

[supercity88]

Have to agree to disagree then. Those you list would not get in todays City team. Thankfully todays England players are nearly all comfortable on the ball in possession. Ok I will agree that there is none of the clique culture today but again that was down to the rotten personalities of those players back then. I did not think any of those players you listed were "world class".

Several of those players get in the current City side. All of them were world class. That squad is better than this one, that's unarguable. Football has evolved but those players were all much better when compared to those from other countries than this current squad. They weren't rotten personalities either. They were committed to club football and the England managers were unable to create an environment of unity and commitment to the national team, in combination with being tactical incapable of getting the best out of them.

What Southgate has achieved with this squad over the past few tournaments is very good. I feel like he's benefitted from some favourable draws and he definitely isn't as tactically astute as many other managers, but whilst someone else could improve on that side, it's no guarantee they'd be able to create the same team environment and that plays a huge part in things.

 

[supercity88]

Many people feel the same way as I do: Southgate's tactics just stifle the life out of the creative players. It's dull, it's tepid, and it's safety-first all the time.
Sure, he's done okay(ish), but personally I just could not sit through 90 minutes of his soul-destroying 'pass-sideways-or-backwards' tactic.

We've just won 7-0, we score plenty of goals both in qualifying and tournaments. He is defence minded but it doesn't stifle our creative players. The main issue with this side remains the defence, not the attack.

 

[TonyColemansbagofapples]

He isn’t playing our MOST creative player. Henderson, Rice and Phillips over Foden, Jesus wept.

 

[BlueHammer85]

I don't think Southgate should be judged for not winning World Cups. I think most managers would fail at that.

He should be judged for his style of play and how fun England are to watch, given most of our time watching England play is more recreational than competitive.

And if you think England are fun to watch... well fair enough, but personally I'd rather spend the time doing the dishes.

What countries are ‘fun’ to watch on a regular basis ?