Middle East Conflict

domalino said:
I don’t care for the comparison either, but that doesn’t change the fact you’re pretending Hamas are democratic representatives of Palestinians and they haven’t been for nearly 15 years.
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Not at all. What I am saying is when they voted in Hamas they were well aware of Hamas' ideology and chose to ignore it. Hamas did not suddenly change its ideology. The same happens throughout history. You are not absolved of accountability when those extremes that you ignored come to fruition and that's the point I am making with respect to the original comparison of accountability of the Jewish people as a religion and Gazans.
 
bluemoon1981 said:
Not at all. What I am saying is when they voted in Hamas they were well aware of Hamas' ideology and chose to ignore it. Hamas did not suddenly change its ideology. The same happens throughout history. You are not absolved of accountability when those extremes that you ignored come to fruition and that's the point I am making with respect to the original comparison of accountability of the Jewish people as a religion and Gazans.
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Israel were aware of Hamas ideology when they funded them 25 years ago to undermine the PLO. A former Israeli brigadier general who was in Gaza told the New York Times in detail years ago how they’d bring in millions in cash and hand it off to people in the mosques because they thought the islamists would be easier to deal with than Arafat’s secularists.

It doesn’t make Israel responsible for Hamas’ actions now and Palestinian civilians, most of whom were not even of voting age to vote in 2006 are not responsible for Hamas.

I know it’s easy for you to pretend the civilians dying in Gaza are accountable for Hamas but is complete shit.

And it’s bizarre that you can so clearly see that non-Israeli Jews who can’t vote are not responsible for Israel, but can’t see that another group (Gazans) with no democratic rights is also not responsible for the actions of the people they can’t control.
 
domalino said:
This is not true.

They did elect Hamas in 2006 for a 4 year term. Since 2010 Hamas has been in power undemocratically.

Democracy isn’t a one time thing. Julius Caesar was democratically elected dictator for 6 months. As soon as he made himself dictator perpetuo he was no longer a democratically elected leader.
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I think it’s also worth pointing out that Israel helped create Hamas.

Hamas was officially founded in 87 during the first Intifada, but its roots were planted much earlier by Sheikh Ahmed Yassine who was a member of the Muslim brotherhood. The brotherhood had been repressed in Gaza prior to 67 by Egypt. Once Israel invaded Gaza they didn’t just turn a blind eye to the Islamists, they actively encouraged them (especially the right wing elements) because they wanted to undermine the dominant political Palestinian party at the time; the PLO, at the heart of which was the secular Fatah part led by Yasser Arafat.

By empowering Sheikh Yassine the Israelis thought they could divide and rule the occupied Palestinians by playing off secular nationalists v religious islamists. So in 1978 when Yassine wanted to make his Islamic association official (which was the precursor to Hamas), the Israeli’s were more than happy to help. Yassine built institutions such as schools, clubs and mosques, with many of these funded by Israel.

Arafat went on record to state Hamas was a creature of Israel and that Rabin had confirmed this to him. But you don’t have to take Arafats word for it as this was later confirmed by top Israeli officials. General Yitzhak Segev told the New York Times that he helped finance the Islamic movement. Colonel David Hacham admitted the original sin was Israeli support for Yassine in the 70’s. Avner Cohen who was the Israeli official responsible for religious affairs in Gaza is quoted as saying “Hamas to my great regret is Israel’s creation”. He even wrote an official report for his superiors in the 80’s warning them not to play divide and conquer in the occupied territories, calling them “To break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face”.

The inconvenient truth for Israel is that Hamas is in part a creature of their own making.
 
bluemick1 said:
Till Iran is wiped out nothing will change. They are the ones who are backing Hamas and Hezbollah
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I think if Qatar can be won over to abandon support, if not ideologically than through capitalist or diplomatic means, it will greatly hamper what Iran can do.

Iran are already a pariah under some of the harshest embargoes in history. Qatar is the friendly western facing state that harbours Hamas’ leaders and acts as a go between.
 
marco said:
post of the thread mate,bang on
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Or you could just get to the core of the issue, Iran is just taking advantage of a bad situation, I doubt they care about Palestinians, for a start they are not Arabs and they are quite extreme Shia Palestinian Muslims are Sunni, in general Shia and Sunni don’t get on too well

Interesting fact Shia Islam has been described as been akin to Catholicism it’s far more colourful with more ritual than Sunni
 
Postman Pep said:
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Haven’t a clue who this guy is and I think as a non believer, I’m a gentile. Might have that wrong.
But he sounds like he knows what he is talking about.
I honestly can’t get my head around what some people see as the blanket defence of all things Jewish, as opposed to all things Israeli.
TBH I don’t understand either.
As a lapsed Catholic or whatever term you want to put on me, and an avid history student, seeing things as objectively as I can, I just don’t see how in this day and age, secular people whatever their background, can justify injustice based solely on their background or upbringing.

I hope that makes sense.
 
Bluemoon_420 said:
I think it’s also worth pointing out that Israel helped create Hamas.

Hamas was officially founded in 87 during the first Intifada, but its roots were planted much earlier by Sheikh Ahmed Yassine who was a member of the Muslim brotherhood. The brotherhood had been repressed in Gaza prior to 67 by Egypt. Once Israel invaded Gaza they didn’t just turn a blind eye to the Islamists, they actively encouraged them (especially the right wing elements) because they wanted to undermine the dominant political Palestinian party at the time; the PLO, at the heart of which was the secular Fatah part led by Yasser Arafat.

By empowering Sheikh Yassine the Israelis thought they could divide and rule the occupied Palestinians by playing off secular nationalists v religious islamists. So in 1978 when Yassine wanted to make his Islamic association official (which was the precursor to Hamas), the Israeli’s were more than happy to help. Yassine built institutions such as schools, clubs and mosques, with many of these funded by Israel.

Arafat went on record to state Hamas was a creature of Israel and that Rabin had confirmed this to him. But you don’t have to take Arafats word for it as this was later confirmed by top Israeli officials. General Yitzhak Segev told the New York Times that he helped finance the Islamic movement. Colonel David Hacham admitted the original sin was Israeli support for Yassine in the 70’s. Avner Cohen who was the Israeli official responsible for religious affairs in Gaza is quoted as saying “Hamas to my great regret is Israel’s creation”. He even wrote an official report for his superiors in the 80’s warning them not to play divide and conquer in the occupied territories, calling them “To break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face”.

The inconvenient truth for Israel is that Hamas is in part a creature of their own making.
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History is full of people trying to be too clever for their own good.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
Haven’t a clue who this guy is and I think as a non believer, I’m a gentile. Might have that wrong.
But he sounds like he knows what he is talking about.
I honestly can’t get my head around what some people see as the blanket defence of all things Jewish, as opposed to all things Israeli.
TBH I don’t understand either.
As a lapsed Catholic or whatever term you want to put on me, and an avid history student, seeing things as objectively as I can, I just don’t see how in this day and age, secular people whatever their background, can justify injustice based solely on their background or upbringing.

I hope that makes sense.
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The late Gerald Kaufman.
Former British Labour party MP.
 
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