VAR Discussion Thread - 2023/24 | PL clubs to vote on whether to scrap VAR (pg413)

[halfcenturyup]

surely we do in every case, I can't think of many (if any) where a ref has gone to monitor and checked and given a verdict which i have no clue why. 99% of them are pretty obvious. Lewin clearly had studs up over the ball so they deemed it a red. I don't need to hear the audio on that personally but i am all for audio to be given if it puts more trust and transparency in the game.

That is part of the problem, though. Studs up, over the ball is nowhere in the laws of the game. They need to refer to the specific elements that make such a challenge an offence in the laws. In simple terms, they just need to consider if a challenge was careless, reckless or used excessive force. And do it consistently. You think Lewin's challenge used excessive force? Or, if you want to be more detailed, did he act without regard to the safety of an opponent, or did he endanger the safety of an opponent?

 

[BlueHammer85]

then they dont mention it but thats another discussion altogether isnt it, still doesnt take away from the fact that if people could hear the conversation whether they agreed with it or not it would remove some of the trust issues surrounding it, same goes for making refs explain how they have come to decisions post game instead of hiding behind point less apologies from webb.

I'd like to agree with you but as i mentioned i don't think anyone would change there feelings that it's all 'corrupt' and refs are spineless etc etc

fans would nit pick every word being said and ask on social media 'how can they say this?? it's a disgrace! ''

they have released the real time audio from some big decisions and it still does nothing to squash the outrage.

 

[tornandfrayed]

All for it. but it wont make much of a dent.

last night incident, let's say we could hear in real time...

VAR - 'ref, you might want to check the monitor, that foot is too high from Lewin and potential red'
Ref ' cheers, i'll take a look'

(runs to monitor)

Ref 'yep your right, studs showing and way to high, red card, cheers'


would that really calm the storm ?

Well people might ask where it says anything about "studs showing" in the laws of the game.

 

[BlueHammer85]

You think Lewin's challenge used excessive force? Or, if you want to be more detailed, did he act without regard to the safety of an opponent, or did he endanger the safety of an opponent?

I honestly think it can be argued either way, it's a very subjective one (like so many) - had Clynes leg been an inch to the right then he would have planted straight in his shin. excessive maybe not but can't 100% rule that out.

 

[willipp]

I honestly think it can be argued either way, it's a very subjective one (like so many) - had Clynes leg been an inch to the right then he would have planted straight in his shin. excessive maybe not but can't 100% rule that out.

This is where VAR needs to sort itself out. There was absolutely no need for VAR involvement last night in that decision. Under a different circumstance like you describe then maybe, but on what happened and the fact the ref gave nothing on-field it should of been a simple check and play on decision.

 

[cleavers]

Everton have appealed, how many think it'll be overturned ?

Only seen it once, but I can't see it being overturned.

 

[BlueHammer85]

This is where VAR needs to sort itself out. There was absolutely no need for VAR involvement last night in that decision. Under a different circumstance like you describe then maybe, but on what happened and the fact the ref gave nothing on-field it should of been a simple check and play on decision.

but if some official saw that on monitor and deemed it a reckless challenge (which can be argued) then that's his job to flag up to the ref.

It's up to the ref to say - ' i saw it and it wasn't reckless, go away' or 'i'll take a look (runs to monitor) nope, nothing much, maybe a yellow'

It's all on the ref. Not VAR who are rightfully just ensuring the ref hasn't missed anything.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I honestly think it can be argued either way, it's a very subjective one (like so many) - had Clynes leg been an inch to the right then he would have planted straight in his shin. excessive maybe not but can't 100% rule that out.

Maybe, but VAR 100% ruled it in.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Everton have appealed, how many think it'll be overturned ?

Only seen it once, but I can't see it being overturned.

pretty desperate if you ask me. There's been way more questionable reds than that one.

 

[halfcenturyup]

but if some official saw that on monitor and deemed it a reckless challenge (which can be argued) then that's his job to flag up to the ref.

It's up to the ref to say - ' i saw it and it wasn't reckless, go away' or 'i'll take a look (runs to monitor) nope, nothing much, maybe a yellow'

It's all on the ref. Not VAR who are rightfully just ensuring the ref hasn't missed anything.

Reckless is a yellow card. Excessive force is red.

 

[city saint]

I'd like to agree with you but as i mentioned i don't think anyone would change there feelings that it's all 'corrupt' and refs are spineless etc etc

fans would nit pick every word being said and ask on social media 'how can they say this?? it's a disgrace! ''

they have released the real time audio from some big decisions and it still does nothing to squash the outrage.

if they got the decision right it would stop the outrage.they need to just give the correct call without worrying about dropping their mates in it

 

[BlueHammer85]

Reckless is a yellow card. Excessive force is red.

so your saying a player can only be sent off if excessive force is made ?

what if a player tried to do a 'Cantona Kung Fu Kick' on someone and missed ? out of interest.

 

[willipp]

but if some official saw that on monitor and deemed it a reckless challenge (which can be argued) then that's his job to flag up to the ref.

It's up to the ref to say - ' i saw it and it wasn't reckless, go away' or 'i'll take a look (runs to monitor) nope, nothing much, maybe a yellow'

It's all on the ref. Not VAR who are rightfully just ensuring the ref hasn't missed anything.

And there lies the problem.

The answer maybe is VAR should have no involvement if its a subjective decision. Leave it to the on-field referee. Offside, was the ball out of play etc and VAR can do its job. If its based on one persons opinion and feelings on a decision, then unless its an extreme mistake, leave it with the referee and let the game continue. The game would be so much better off with that alone.

 

[BlueHammer85]

if they got the decision right it would stop the outrage.they need to just give the correct call without worrying about dropping their mates in it

but that's a lot easier said. Most decisions are subjective and even officials see them different. there just isn't a blueprint for every single decision, some of it simply comes down to interpretation.

 

[BlueHammer85]

And there lies the problem.

The answer maybe is VAR should have no involvement if its a subjective decision. Leave it to the on-field referee. Offside, was the ball out of play etc and VAR can do its job. If its based on one persons opinion and feelings on a decision, then unless its an extreme mistake, leave it with the referee and let the game continue. The game would be so much better off with that alone.

ok but i have 2 objectives here.

1. what if the VAR official deems it 'extreme' even if the ref and most fans don't?

2. what if the ref is looking away and a player does something worthy of a red ? surely he should be punished and not be let off, Suarez biting for example!

will debate more when i can, gotta shoot. Glad the couple of hot heads haven't jumped in yet accusing me of WUM and throwing toys out pram. its been a good sensible debate.

 

[city saint]

but that's a lot easier said. Most decisions are subjective and even officials see calls different. there just isn't a blueprint for every single decision, some of it simply comes down to interpretation.

thats true but some of the decisions are ridiculous to 99 percent of football fans so why do they get some so wrong.

 

[halfcenturyup]

so your saying a player can only be sent off if excessive force is made ?

what if a player tried to do a 'Cantona Kung Fu Kick' on someone and missed ? out of interest.

That would be endangering the safety of an opponent which is a component of excessive force and a red card.

Edit: and, yes to your first question.

 

[willipp]

ok but i have 2 objectives here.

1. what if the VAR official deems it 'extreme' even if the ref and most fans don't?

2. what if the ref is looking away and a player does something worthy of a red ? surely he should be punished and not be let off, Suarez biting for example!

will debate more when i can, gotta shoot. Glad the couple of hot heads haven't jumped in yet accusing me of WUM and throwing toys out pram. its been a good sensible debate.

I would say then the Suarez kind of incident is the extreme i mean. I don't mean a bad tackle potentially like yesterdays (i dont think it was a bad tackle), i mean the only things VAR should be getting involved in is an agreed list of factual decisions where there is no subjectivity in it.

There will always be a chance of a Suarez biting incident and yes, VAR do their job in those circumstances, but for the 99.9999% of subjective decisions that a ref makes, it stays with them.

 

[halfcenturyup]

ok but i have 2 objectives here.

1. what if the VAR official deems it 'extreme' even if the ref and most fans don't?

2. what if the ref is looking away and a player does something worthy of a red ? surely he should be punished and not be let off, Suarez biting for example!

will debate more when i can, gotta shoot. Glad the couple of hot heads haven't jumped in yet accusing me of WUM and throwing toys out pram. its been a good sensible debate.

Fucking wum.

Edit: just to be clear, it was a joke, matey. :)

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

I would say then the Suarez kind of incident is the extreme i mean. I don't mean a bad tackle potentially like yesterdays (i dont think it was a bad tackle), i mean the only things VAR should be getting involved in is an agreed list of factual decisions where there is no subjectivity in it.

There will always be a chance of a Suarez biting incident and yes, VAR do their job in those circumstances, but for the 99.9999% of subjective decisions that a ref makes, it stays with them.

I agree with this, I think the way it should work is that VAR can only intervene on:
1. Matters of fact (ball in or out of touch)
2. Mistaken identity
3. Offsides (using semi automated offside tech to speed it up)
4. Alerting the referee to something he may have completely missed (X player punching somebody when the ref’s back is turned) - in which case he is sent to the screen

And here’s a crazy fucking idea - then as well as the above, the referee (not VAR) can initiate a review for things he wants another look at (penalties and red cards). Exactly as it is in rugby, the referee tells TMO what he wants another look at, NOT the other way round. The screen is there to be used as a tool for referees so just give him the ability to request access to that tool.