The Labour Government

Vic said:
It's not divisive to recognise that a generation voting Tory (and Brexit) have screwed the younger generation.
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Hang on. I'm of that generation. I've never voted Tory and I certainly didn't vote Brexit as I am not a moron.

You cannot have collective punishment of generations. That's like fining all young people £500 for using coke, on the basis that many of them do use it.
 
BrianW said:
Hang on. I'm of that generation. I've never voted Tory and I certainly didn't vote Brexit as I am not a moron.

You cannot have collective punishment of generations. That's like fining all young people £500 for using coke, on the basis that many of them do use it.
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Have a go at Hilts. He's the one challenging the fact that most pensioners are not going to freeze without the winter fuel payment. Withdrawing the WFP is not collective punishment.

The other fact is that the only generation with a majority now voting Tory is the over 65s, and (however you voted) this current generation are the wealthiest pensioners in British history (1 in 10 paying higher rate tax) and the next generation of pensioners will be poorer. And they're forcing up house prices by helping their younger relatives get on the housing market (not so good for those who can't rely on the bank of mum and dad) - and by being NIMBYs (creating scarcity that inflates the value of their property).

It's not as if the Tories have not done their bit - no free TV licence, raising the age at which you get a bus pass, cuts to councils so bus services have disappeared in some areas even if you had a bus pass. You used to be able to rely on finding a local library to keep warm in but Tory cuts have seen to that.
 
TinFoilHat said:
www.thenational.scot

Labour party members could be stripped of vote in future leadership contests

MPS could be the only Labour members who would be allowed to elect the next party leader under plans by Keir Starmer’s allies which they are…
www.thenational.scot www.thenational.scot

Another fuck you to the members being planned.
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The MPs are those elected by the population and therefore best represent what the population want. A PM primarily accountable to the people through their MPs rather than primarily accountable to party members / activists makes a lot of sense to me.
The Tories have demonstrated with Truss and Johnson what can happen when party members are given the biggest say.
 
Vic said:
Have a go at Hilts. He's the one challenging the fact that most pensioners are not going to freeze without the winter fuel payment. Withdrawing the WFP is not collective punishment.

The other fact is that the only generation with a majority now voting Tory is the over 65s, and (however you voted) this current generation are the wealthiest pensioners in British history (1 in 10 paying higher rate tax) and the next generation of pensioners will be poorer. And they're forcing up house prices by helping their younger relatives get on the housing market (not so good for those who can't rely on the bank of mum and dad) - and by being NIMBYs (creating scarcity that inflates the value of their property).

It's not as if the Tories have not done their bit - no free TV licence, raising the age at which you get a bus pass, cuts to councils so bus services have disappeared in some areas even if you had a bus pass. You used to be able to rely on finding a local library to keep warm in but Tory cuts have seen to that.
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Jesus. What a post.

You’re denying that you want collective punishment for pensioners, then you rattle off a list of reasons why you so obviously hate them, and do in fact want to dish out collective punishment.

Because a majority of them vote Tory - let them freeze. Because some of them try to help their families - let them freeze. Because you think they’re all Nimbys (zero proof of this by the way) - you guessed it, let them freeze.

Cap it all off by throwing in a nice little patronising idea about finding a library to keep warm in, which - somewhat preposterously - you lament can’t now happen because of the evil Tories.

Quite remarkable.
 
Brewster's millions said:
Jesus. What a post.

You’re denying that you want collective punishment for pensioners, then you rattle off a list of reasons why you so obviously hate them, and do in fact want to dish out collective punishment.

Because a majority of them vote Tory - let them freeze. Because some of them try to help their families - let them freeze. Because you think they’re all Nimbys (zero proof of this by the way) - you guessed it, let them freeze.

Cap it all off by throwing in a nice little patronising idea about finding a library to keep warm in, which - somewhat preposterously - you lament can’t now happen because of the evil Tories.

Quite remarkable
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As Bozo said “Let the bodies pile high”
 
Vic said:
I have no idea what formula provides that equation but, assuming that "per passenger" means a daily commuter, it must value the "productivity" of time (not) spent on a train at about £25 an hour.

And if someone happens to work near Victoria rather than Piccadilly where NPR would go, then total journey time is no quicker than the present service Leeds to Victoria. And of course NPR from Liverpool to Manchester would be no quicker than a non-stop train now from Lime Street to Victoria.

Without HS2 into Piccadilly bearing the construction costs and providing most of the services, none of it makes commercial sense.
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It is time, that’s how they value return on infrastructure for government spending. The logic being if you spend less time getting somewhere you can go and do “more”. Commercially it has to make sense, no point doing something that no one uses, for the return to work holistically you want it to be running at as near to capacity as reasonable - for rails that would be during peak times rather than off peak - this increases revenue etc.
 
hilts said:
Where did I say high taxes?
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My original point was precisely about taxes, and how Tory apologists are at once aghast and surprised that they are going to need to rise a little to fix the country. How else do these idiots propose we improve public service and give the public sector fair pay? They are too self-absorbed to see it's the only way of redressing things.

I object wholeheartedly to Labour's decision to halt winter fuel allowance, if it isn't reversed they will go down in my estimation. But that has nothing to do with taxes needing to rise.
 
Blue and true said:
My original point was precisely about taxes, and how Tory apologists are at once aghast and surprised that they are going to need to rise a little to fix the country. How else do these idiots propose we improve public service and give the public sector fair pay? They are too self-absorbed to see it's the only way of redressing things.

I object wholeheartedly to Labour's decision to halt winter fuel allowance, if it isn't reversed they will go down in my estimation. But that has nothing to do with taxes needing to rise.
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I agree with all of that but we are already taxed a lot nowadays, all I want to see happen is those with the broader shoulders take more of the weight. I expect to pay more tax and that's fine but I'm hoping it's not the poor that get battered the most.

I'm on an average wage so I'm not an entitled loaded prick who is averse to giving up some of their money.

I hoped we're all in it together was gonna be true this time under Labour, the fuel allowance farce hasn't filled me with much hope.
 
Blue and true said:
My original point was precisely about taxes, and how Tory apologists are at once aghast and surprised that they are going to need to rise a little to fix the country. How else do these idiots propose we improve public service and give the public sector fair pay? They are too self-absorbed to see it's the only way of redressing things.

I object wholeheartedly to Labour's decision to halt winter fuel allowance, if it isn't reversed they will go down in my estimation. But that has nothing to do with taxes needing to rise.
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Moving the deckchairs on the Titanic. The tax system needs a fundamental rethink.
 
Brewster's millions said:
Jesus. What a post.

You’re denying that you want collective punishment for pensioners, then you rattle off a list of reasons why you so obviously hate them, and do in fact want to dish out collective punishment.

Because a majority of them vote Tory - let them freeze. Because some of them try to help their families - let them freeze. Because you think they’re all Nimbys (zero proof of this by the way) - you guessed it, let them freeze.

Cap it all off by throwing in a nice little patronising idea about finding a library to keep warm in, which - somewhat preposterously - you lament can’t now happen because of the evil Tories.

Quite remarkable.
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The irony is the old dears that will suffer with the cold will very likely be Labour supporters in the inner cities.
How anyone can be willing to give them a kicking as punishment for the wealthier pensioners is disturbing tbh.
 
Brewster's millions said:
Jesus. What a post.

You’re denying that you want collective punishment for pensioners, then you rattle off a list of reasons why you so obviously hate them, and do in fact want to dish out collective punishment.

Because a majority of them vote Tory - let them freeze. Because some of them try to help their families - let them freeze. Because you think they’re all Nimbys (zero proof of this by the way) - you guessed it, let them freeze.

Cap it all off by throwing in a nice little patronising idea about finding a library to keep warm in, which - somewhat preposterously - you lament can’t now happen because of the evil Tories.

Quite remarkable.
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I'm fed up with this nonsense.

Deal with pensioner poverty but don't pretend most pensioners are poor.

From the same report:

"We need to search for better alternatives to how we have allowed our welfare state to corrode. Consider for instance, our pensioners who are destined to mostly subsist in poverty if they live long enough. The Table below shows the most recent median incomes of better-off tax paying pensioners in London. An income of £11,000 a year (in Hackney) is £30 a day. Our elite are so ignorant of the simplest social statistics that they have no idea that the average tax paying pensioner, including those pensioners living just a few miles from the Houses of Parliament, survive on so little."

"While great strides have been made in reducing pensioner poverty over the last decade, we are now in the unprecedented position where a higher proportion of working age people are in poverty than pensioners."

 
metalblue said:
It is time, that’s how they value return on infrastructure for government spending. The logic being if you spend less time getting somewhere you can go and do “more”. Commercially it has to make sense, no point doing something that no one uses, for the return to work holistically you want it to be running at as near to capacity as reasonable - for rails that would be during peak times rather than off peak - this increases revenue etc.
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I don't understand the last bit. But clearly the tunnel under south Manchester would be closer to capacity with HS2 trains from London (going on to Leeds) and from Liverpool rather than just trains from Liverpool.

The other problem is that faster trains mean some commuters live further away from where they work, where housing is cheaper, so they don't save any time.
 
Vic said:
We got free prescriptions, free dental treatment, free university if you wanted it, housing might have been a struggle but most young people now would think the chance for a "struggle" would be nice. Most pensioners own their own homes with no mortgage or rent, and most of them have a decent occupational pension. Most are not choosing between "heat" and "eat".
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Can you back that up?
I live in Wigan (a Labour stronghold), and that is most certainly not the case.
 
Vic said:
I don't understand the last bit. But clearly the tunnel under south Manchester would be closer to capacity with HS2 trains from London (going on to Leeds) and from Liverpool rather than just trains from Liverpool.

The other problem is that faster trains mean some commuters live further away from where they work, where housing is cheaper, so they don't save any time.
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If they choose to live further out then they don’t save time but it spreads the wealth out. You see how much wealth is concentrated around London, if people can live further away that supports local economies and so on. For me that’s one of the benefits of faster trains rather than a problem.
 
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