"I would rather lose a tournament than break my word to a player"

[Lancet Fluke]

Once he has made the promise it is only correct that he sticks to it. Whether promises/guarantees like that should be made to any player is probably a more interesting discussion.

 

[Rolee]

Which is why I am dead against the 'cup keeper' policy that has crept into football. It isn't rational to me - it infers that all domestic cup games are inferior to all league games which obviously isn't true.

It is too black and white and leads to playing a weakened team in a cup final. I would much rather a more flexible approach, where the backup comes in for a few easier league games over busy periods (like Xmas period etc), and Joe Hart can still play in key cup games and Wembley finals.

I hope we see a new approach under Guardiola.

By the same token playing your no.2 in 'easier' league games suggests them games are inferior to others which could lead to underestimating your opponent and dropping points as a result.

There's no easy answer to this, it's a delicate balancing act as you have to keep your no.2 sharp and you have to ensure harmony amongst the squad.

I personally have no issue with a 'cup keeper', if he performs to a required standard ( and Willy largely did, the Chelsea game aside )in the games he plays then he deserves to be in the side should we reach a final.

 

[George Hannah]

For all the misgivings we had about his choice, the fact remains that our club's reputation has been enhanced by Manuel's loyal actions.

 

[Dribble]

EASY read or listen to the full interview he says I trust Willy and his ability I watch him train everyday

Would it not be poor management to make a promise to a player and then go back on that promise ?

How would we ever build a squad the players would not come or trust the manager

,

I don't know how I can make my viewpoint more lucid. I had no issue with Willy playing on Sunday I have no issue with Willy being our cup competition keeper, I have no issue with Willy being told you will play all the way to the final if we get there.

What I do take issue with is our manager saying he'd rather LOSE than break his word to a player. Every adult will knows about the best laid plans of mice and men and that situations change so you have to prepare yourself as best you can for any eventuality.

Now what you've stated that Manuel said is exactly what I said he should have said and he should have gone further and finished with 'So Willy plays!' Now where the controversy comes in is with 'I'd rather LOSE'. Where does this principled stance end? I'd rather LOSE than go back on my belief that Yaya can play in a midfield two? Where does his I'd rather LOSE end?

The club clearly have higher aspirations than the Capital One Cup and FA Cup. In an ideal world we'd win all 4 competitions but I don't think you'll see us or anybody else win all four in a single season, it's nigh on impossible with the amount of games and intensity in England. The club have clearly told the second choice goalkeepers they'll play in those two cup competitions, even before Pellegrini's time because Pantilimon played when Mancini. The reason for that is to attract the best goalkeeper they can as second choice, as you never know when he'll be needed in the Premier League and Champions League. By breaking the promises made we would risk other goalkeepers not wanting to come because they wouldn't trust the club in they got to another final that the first choice wouldn't play in front of him.

Potentially sacrificing a cup win for a better squad in the 2 main competitions is to me and a lot of fans completely understandable.

I refer you to my response above. I have no problem with Willy being given a promise to play in the domestic cup competitions, my issue is 'I'd rather LOSE'.

What I also find laughable is fans who've never met our club's hierarchy but they're happy to make comments on their behalf that this is what our owners would want. Funny, last season Khaldoon stated that another season without silverware was totally unacceptable for team with our ambitions and resources. I don't think 'I'd rather LOSE' was part of his thinking when he said that.

Whereas I pay my money to see City play. Always have done and always will do. Some things in life are more important than winning.

Like LOSING rather than breaking your word? Life is the key word here mate and everyone has differing aspirations in that respect.

Was it the writer David Conn (I think) who said our club had lost its soul and he preferred it when we were perennial losers and couldn't stand our advancement as it left him feeling disconnected from the club? He's a City fan and entitled to his opinion, personally I'd prefer us as we are and who we're going to be.

We compete to win, if not we may as well pack it all in and turn into a Sunday League club and just turn up to watch us play on Hough End playing fields just for the social craik of it.

He didn't say that though. He said it was about having given his word.

That's without getting into the strawman allegation that he didn't think twice about Jovetic - I mean, really? You can't seriously believe that.

Funny, the title of this thread says he did say it. Again I have no issue with him giving his word to Willy, I just have an issue with him saying (if indeed he did say it) that he'd rather LOSE the tournament than break his word.

Above all else, he is here to win football matches. Anyone who thinks differently isn't being realistic as to why our owners have invested so much in our club. If winning football matches wasn't their primary motive, why not leave Manuel in place? After all he embodies exactly what the club is all about doesn't he?

 

[goalmole]

I don't know how I can make my viewpoint more lucid. I had no issue with Willy playing on Sunday I have no issue with Willy being our cup competition keeper, I have no issue with Willy being told you will play all the way to the final if we get there.

What I do take issue with is our manager saying he'd rather LOSE than break his word to a player. Every adult will knows about the best laid plans of mice and men and that situations change so you have to prepare yourself as best you can for any eventuality.

Now what you've stated that Manuel said is exactly what I said he should have said and he should have gone further and finished with 'So Willy plays!' Now where the controversy comes in is with 'I'd rather LOSE'. Where does this principled stance end? I'd rather LOSE than go back on my belief that Yaya can play in a midfield two? Where does his I'd rather LOSE end?


I refer you to my response above. I have no problem with Willy being given a promise to play in the domestic cup competitions, my issue is 'I'd rather LOSE'.

What I also find laughable is fans who've never met our club's hierarchy but they're happy to make comments on their behalf that this is what our owners would want. Funny, last season Khaldoon stated that another season without silverware was totally unacceptable for team with our ambitions and resources. I don't think 'I'd rather LOSE' was part of his thinking when he said that.

Like LOSING rather than breaking your word? Life is the key word here mate and everyone has differing aspirations in that respect.

Was it the writer David Conn (I think) who said our club had lost its soul and he preferred it when we were perennial losers and couldn't stand our advancement as it left him feeling disconnected from the club? He's a City fan and entitled to his opinion, personally I'd prefer us as we are and who we're going to be.

We compete to win, if not we may as well pack it all in and turn into a Sunday League club and just turn up to watch us play on Hough End playing fields just for the social craik of it.


Funny, the title of this thread says he did say it. Again I have no issue with him giving his word to Willy, I just have an issue with him saying (if indeed he did say it) that he'd rather LOSE the tournament than break his word.

Above all else, he is here to win football matches. Anyone who thinks differently isn't being realistic as to why our owners have invested so much in our club. If winning football matches wasn't their primary motive, why not leave Manuel in place? After all he embodies exactly what the club is all about doesn't he?

Are you still banging on about that?

 

[Rolee]

I don't know how I can make my viewpoint more lucid. I had no issue with Willy playing on Sunday I have no issue with Willy being our cup competition keeper, I have no issue with Willy being told you will play all the way to the final if we get there.

What I do take issue with is our manager saying he'd rather LOSE than break his word to a player. Every adult will knows about the best laid plans of mice and men and that situations change so you have to prepare yourself as best you can for any eventuality.

Now what you've stated that Manuel said is exactly what I said he should have said and he should have gone further and finished with 'So Willy plays!' Now where the controversy comes in is with 'I'd rather LOSE'. Where does this principled stance end? I'd rather LOSE than go back on my belief that Yaya can play in a midfield two? Where does his I'd rather LOSE end?


I refer you to my response above. I have no problem with Willy being given a promise to play in the domestic cup competitions, my issue is 'I'd rather LOSE'.

What I also find laughable is fans who've never met our club's hierarchy but they're happy to make comments on their behalf that this is what our owners would want. Funny, last season Khaldoon stated that another season without silverware was totally unacceptable for team with our ambitions and resources. I don't think 'I'd rather LOSE' was part of his thinking when he said that.

Like LOSING rather than breaking your word? Life is the key word here mate and everyone has differing aspirations in that respect.

Was it the writer David Conn (I think) who said our club had lost its soul and he preferred it when we were perennial losers and couldn't stand our advancement as it left him feeling disconnected from the club? He's a City fan and entitled to his opinion, personally I'd prefer us as we are and who we're going to be.

We compete to win, if not we may as well pack it all in and turn into a Sunday League club and just turn up to watch for the social craik of it.


Funny, the title of this thread says he did say it. Again I have no issue with him giving his word to Willy, I just have an issue with him saying (if indeed he did say it) that he'd rather lose the tournament that break his word.

Above all else, he is here to win football matches. Anyone who thinks differently isn't being realistic as to why our owners have invested so much in our club. If winning football matches wasn't their primary motive, why not leave Manuel in place? After all he embodies exactly what the club is all about doesn't he?

The principled stance doesn't end but he's smart enough to make promises, or give his word if you like, in situations where the likelihood is that it's not going to come back and bite him on the arse.

 

[blueparrot]

I'm not a fan of his statement, he is there to win trophies not to keep promises.

The solution isn't to break his promises, but to not make them in the first place.

But then how do you keep any reserve keeper, not just Willy, happy and match fit if we can't at least offer cup games, and once you've offered cup games that has to include any final we get to the promise is unspoken, break that and how do you recruit the next keeper, or keep that keeper match sharp in case of injury loss of form with Joe ?
Plus in my opinion Pep will probably do exactly the same.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

For all the misgivings we had about his choice, the fact remains that our club's reputation has been enhanced by Manuel's loyal actions.

And Willy's heroics. Nice to think that Everton fans would have been jumping outta their seats at those three saves - and they might just have forgotten Raheem's diversion down the Ashton Canal towpath for our second in the Semi!!

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Funny, the title of this thread says he did say it. Again I have no issue with him giving his word to Willy, I just have an issue with him saying (if indeed he did say it) that he'd rather LOSE the tournament than break his word.

Dribble, 12:46 AM today:
"So pardon me for being concerned when our manager says he'll sacrifice a win to save one players feelings."

He didn't say that. The title of the thread doesn't say he said that. You said that.

 

[Dribble]

Dribble, 12:46 AM today:
"So pardon me for being concerned when our manager says he'll sacrifice a win to save one players feelings."

He didn't say that. The title of the thread doesn't say he said that. You said that.

Potato - Potaato. Now you're just splitting hairs.

Whatever mate, it amounts to the same thing which is, "I would rather LOSE a tournament than break my word to a player".

The result is paramount, but obviously our owners don't agree with me which is why they've extended Manuel's contract by 12 months because he embodies everything the club is about on and off the field. Sorry, I apologise.

 

[Rolee]

Potato - Potaato. Now you're just splitting hairs.

Whatever mate, it amounts to the same thing which is, "I would rather LOSE a tournament than break my word to a player".

The result is paramount, but obviously our owners don't agree with me which is why they've extended Manuel's contract by 12 months because he embodies everything the club is about on and off the field. Sorry, I apologise.

Mate you're ignoring the fact that he wouldn't give his word if he felt it was going to cost us.

 

[Dax777]

Which is why I am dead against the 'cup keeper' policy that has crept into football. It isn't rational to me - it infers that all domestic cup games are inferior to all league games which obviously isn't true.

It is too black and white and leads to playing a weakened team in a cup final. I would much rather a more flexible approach, where the backup comes in for a few easier league games over busy periods (like Xmas period etc), and Joe Hart can still play in key cup games and Wembley finals.

I hope we see a new approach under Guardiola.

We will not. Guardiola played Pinto (back up at Barca) in multiple cup finals.

You have to believe in your squad. Show faith in back up keeper's in key situations. If you wouldn't let them play the big game. You hurt your club as well as their development and readiness to step in.

 

[Dribble]

The principled stance doesn't end but he's smart enough to make promises, or give his word if you like, in situations where the likelihood is that it's not going to come back and bite him on the arse.

Again, you completely miss my point. I couldn't give a rats arse about the promises he's made, but I am concerned with, "I would rather LOSE a tournament than break my word to a player".

Obviously our owners agree with his philosophy which is why they've extended his contract by 12 months and NOT winning trophies doesn't concern them at all.

 

[Dribble]

Mate you're ignoring the fact that he wouldn't give his word if he felt it was going to cost us.

When will you understand I'm not arsed about him giving his word, I'm just bothered about the I'd rather LOSE bit.

Question: If asked in private, do you think our owner would agree with Manuel's I'd rather LOSE part of his statement?

 

[blueparrot]

When will you understand I'm not arsed about him giving his word, I'm just bothered about the I'd rather LOSE bit.

Question: If asked in private, do you think our owner would agree with Manuel's I'd rather LOSE part of his statement?

With them looking at the bigger picture and long term. yes I think they would agree.

 

[Neville Kneville]

We will not. Guardiola played Pinto (back up at Barca) in multiple cup finals.

You have to believe in your squad. Show faith in back up keeper's in key situations. If you wouldn't let them play the big game. You hurt your club as well as their development and readiness to step in.

It's a policy which is unlikely to change under Pep, but if it we go into a cup final with our 2nd keeper & he costs us the game due to being in a shit run of form, imo the manager will have fucked up.

It should be a situation which is subject to the player in question performing up to the required standard, not a 'promise' that he plays irrespective. Joe Hart was dropped from the Prem team when he hit a bad spell. The 'cup keeper' should have the same rule applied.

Personally, I would treat both domestic cup competitions as an opportunity to bring through one or two kids, but we have put out our strongest available teams for the most part, when we can, in each one, risking fitness in other competitions, which makes this idea of then always picking the reserve keeper because he's on a 'promise' a bit hypocritical.

I think Pep will do the same on the whole though, but possibly use more kids in the earlier rounds.

 

[Rolee]

Again, you completely miss my point. I couldn't give a rats arse about the promises he's made, but I am concerned with, "I would rather LOSE a tournament than break my word to a player".

Obviously our owners agree with his philosophy which is why they've extended his contract by 12 months and NOT winning trophies doesn't concern them at all.

Can you not see how absurd your second paragraph is? And how absurd the leap you've made from Manuel's comment to the conclusion you've come to is?

 

[Rolee]

It's a policy which is unlikely to change under Pep, but if it we go into a cup final with our 2nd keeper & he costs us the game due to being in a shit run of form, imo the manager will have fucked up.

It should be a situation which is subject to the player in question performing up to the required standard, not a 'promise' that he plays irrespective. Joe Hart was dropped from the Prem team when he hit a bad spell. The 'cup keeper' should have the same rule applied.

Personally, I would treat both domestic cup competitions as an opportunity to bring through one or two kids, but we have put out our strongest available teams for the most part, when we can, in each one, risking fitness in other competitions, which makes this idea of then always picking the reserve keeper because he's on a 'promise' a bit hypocritical.

I think Pep will do the same on the whole though, but possibly use more kids in the earlier rounds.

Thing is mate, form is based on more than one game, could you say Willy was out of form just because of his performance against Chelsea?

I would say based on his previous three appearances he was in good form with the Chelsea game being a blip.

 

[Dax777]

When will you understand I'm not arsed about him giving his word, I'm just bothered about the I'd rather LOSE bit.

Question: If asked in private, do you think our owner would agree with Manuel's I'd rather LOSE part of his statement?

I think your worry is just make believe. Getting caught up in the 'i'd rather lose' comment and focussing exclusively on it, in an attempt to overstate it's importance to the detriment of everything else said is laughable.

It's the equivalent of a player who just won a game saying ' l'd have rather died, than lose that match' and someone then going off for days arguing the club has a suicide threatening player on its squad. It's a cute, but somewhat silly conclusion to reach. Even though the factual claim States it.

In reality, common sense suggests all the player is really saying, is that he is 'committed' not that he'd actually die. Manuel too is simply saying he is 'principled' not that he'd actually lose.

Clearly for example, if Willy had a cast on his leg a week before the final certainly Manuel wouldn't have played him. Equally, if he was terrible in practice or prior games too.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Thing is mate, form is based on more than one game, could you say Willy was out of form just because of his performance against Chelsea?

I would say based on his previous three appearances he was in good form with the Chelsea game being a blip.

I think he's been pretty poor in most games this season & last tbh bar the penalty saves which I'm not sure Joe would have got, so that worked out perfectly.

BUT, I don't think Liverpool would have scored the equaliser if Hart had been playing.