EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

Metal biker makes a great point about the proposed EU Army. But in the event of an Out vote, will Britain not be driven further into the arms of the United States?

With Cameron finished and the very real prospect of Trump being elected president, we could be looking at a Boris/Trump team-up, with the UK as a very junior partner. That to me is quite frightening.

I wouldn't worry it will all be over quickly

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

ok you got me, I don't care enough about curvy bananas or whatever it is your upset about this week, selfishly I have put the continued welfare and prosperity of myself and my loved ones above banana regulations, if only I could be as principled about this as you

Nothing will change in time most of the trends all the brexiters rally for are over a century old , the horses have long bolted and died of old age in a field decades ago. The irony is the dream people want to return to wasn't even that good at the time as any Dickens novel will tell you.

What exactly of the last 40 years has really fucked people, the last 40 years have been the statistically and factually the safest, wealthiest, most comfortable 40 years in human history. By a very large margin. It says something about the hysteria around today that you can even post that with a straight face.

A generation in Britain who know nothing of all the horrors that beset the last millennia now pretend that we're fucks - thank goodness yiu didn't have to go through the blitz or black death which were mild compared to the immense hardships of the last 40 years!

Fuckin ell. Please tell me someone has hacked your account.

 

[inchy14]

Nothing will change in time most of the trends all the brexiters rally for are over a century old , the horses have long bolted and died of old age in a field decades ago. The irony is the dream people want to return to wasn't even that good at the time as any Dickens novel will tell you.

What exactly of the last 40 years has really fucked people, the last 40 years have been the statistically and factually the safest, wealthiest, most comfortable 40 years in human history. By a very large margin. It says something about the hysteria around today that you can even post that with a straight face.

A generation in Britain who know nothing of all the horrors that beset the last millennia now pretend that we're fucks - thank goodness yiu didn't have to go through the blitz or black death which were mild compared to the immense hardships of the last 40 years!

What i actually meant was that it started out with a common purpose of trading easily with the rest of Europe but over 40 years has become a beaurocratic minefield with mountains red tape, has no accountability, has introduced a currency that hardly anybody wants and in the next 10 years will probably force on the rest of us.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Fuckin ell. Please tell me someone has hacked your account.

all that fucked wealth and relative peace - how awful. I sometimes wonder whether people even know they're born

 

[mcfc1632]

Do you think anyone would voice it? London has been acting like that for hundreds of years but would never overtly say it. Look at thatcher it was her cornerstone pretty much but the rhetoric always has to be about everyone like she cares about the poor of Sunderland

Wow - I have heard of some conspiracies / agendas before but fuck me!! - so there is a silent movement within the south - so silent we that live hear to not hear it

There is a seeming approach from the remain camp that simply twist in the wind to make anything seem to support their positions.

Why bother with facts - totally inconvenient. You seem to have caught the remain bug - lets just make up stories and scare everyone. Think your arguments are getting a 'bit fanciful and off piste' TBF - I think that I will restrict myself to the Referendum topic.

 

[EalingBlue2]

What i actually meant was that it started out with a common purpose of trading easily with the rest of Europe but over 40 years has become a beaurocratic minefield with mountains red tape, has no accountability, has introduced a currency that hardly anybody wants and in the next 10 years will probably force on the rest of us.

Mountains of red tape, I can assure you of you go back through history and look at the tariffs, trade embargoes, other taxes and at multiple levels of government and other such things that used to exist in many ways global and European trade is easier than it's ever been.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

all that fucked wealth and relative peace - how awful. I sometimes wonder whether people even know they're born

It's wonderful but it's not all down to the eu, is it? Come on I have told you a million times stop exaggerating ;)

 

[EalingBlue2]

Wow - I have heard of some conspiracies / agendas before but fuck me!! - so there is a silent movement within the south - so silent we that live hear to not hear it

There is a seeming approach from the remain camp that simply twist in the wind to make anything seem to support their positions.

Why bother with facts - totally inconvenient. You seem to have caught the remain bug - lets just make up stories and scare everyone. Think your arguments are getting a 'bit fanciful and off piste' TBF - I think that I will restrict myself to the Referendum topic.

so you really think that Britain hasn't been run as an inconvenient distraction around a city state for many decades? It's not a conspiracy it's just blindingly obvious. Look at how bankers were treated compared to miners or ship builders etc look at how the tax system runs etc etc I think the same issues exist in other countries where one area or city has so much wealth compared to the country.

As for twisting in the wind , the Inners can point to facts. 40 years of history, where we are today. The outers look at a made up idealistic scenario of what could be and try and paint it as fact. It's a bit like me saying city are better than United we finished higher in the league And a rag counters by saying we are going to sign messi and pogba and beat you 4-0 next season - who's right? The reality or a dream future scenario

 

[mcfc1632]

What i actually meant was that it started out with a common purpose of trading easily with the rest of Europe but over 40 years has become a beaurocratic minefield with mountains red tape, has no accountability, has introduced a currency that hardly anybody wants and in the next 10 years will probably force on the rest of us.[/QUOTE]


Proven approach is to ensure that a leading UK politician (PM perhaps) is promised a major role after leaving office - perhaps being President of EU - if they were to persuade us to transfer to the Euro - it nearly worked - and how would we be hurting now.

Fast forward to 2015/16 and we have Cameron's Volte Face - wonder what he is aspiring to after leaving office.

If all the doom mongering is right I personally would be better of with a remain vote - but I see this as a once in a lifetime opportunity. Whatever 'protections' we have in 2016 are only the inconvenient topics that future politicians will give away as they feather their own party and personal positions within the EU.

 

[purplenose]

so you really think that Britain hasn't been run as an inconvenient distraction around a city state for many decades? It's not a conspiracy it's just blindingly obvious. Look at how bankers were treated compared to miners or ship builders etc

Staying in Europe will prevent miners and shipbuilders being treated differently to bankers will it? what a load of bloody nonsense.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Fuckin ell. Please tell me someone has hacked your account.

;-)

 

[EalingBlue2]

It's wonderful but it's not all down to the eu, is it? Come on I have told you a million times stop exaggerating ;)

no it's not all down to the EU , it's probably mainly down to baby boomers selling a countries infrastructure for short term gain and nuclear weapons deterring war as much as the EU or anything else and that's not my point, it is the nonsense of someone pretending the last 40 years have been fucked!

 

[EalingBlue2]

Staying in Europe will prevent miners and shipbuilders being treated differently to bankers will it? what a load of bloody nonsense.

There aren't any are there a London centric government policy and an inability to compete with Asia and South America saw to that.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I agree with that the last 4

no it's not all down to the EU , it's probably mainly down to baby boomers selling a countries infrastructure for short term gain and nuclear weapons deterring war as much as the EU or anything else and that's not my point, it is the nonsense of someone pretending the last 40 years have been fucked!

Oh fair enough they have not been, I agree with that.

 

[mcfc1632]

so you really think that Britain hasn't been run as an inconvenient distraction around a city state for many decades? It's not a conspiracy it's just blindingly obvious. Look at how bankers were treated compared to miners or ship builders etc look at how the tax system runs etc etc I think the same issues exist in other countries where one area or city has so much wealth compared to the country.

As for twisting in the wind , the Inners can point to facts. 40 years of history, where we are today. The outers look at a made up idealistic scenario of what could be and try and paint it as fact. It's a bit like me saying city are better than United we finished higher in the league And a rag counters by saying we are going to sign messi and pogba and beat you 4-0 next season - who's right? The reality or a dream future scenario

I am going to stay on the topic of a Referendum in 4 weeks - interesting though such a wider discussion could be.

In terms of 'made up' I consider the recent 'dodgy dossiers' from the Treasury and other groups to be highly suspect.

I say this because I have worked at senior levels in Whitehall departments - including the Treasury. I have first hand experience of how economic and financial models are 'managed' to give the answer you wish to put out there. The economic specialists in the leave group are right to challenge just what 'assumptions' have been loaded as inputs to ensure that the outputs are all so grim. Perhaps load all the worst case scenarios and include none of the 'up-side'??

It is a well-proven approach that electorates have fallen for over decades - why do people think that almost every Treasury forecast over so many years has been inaccurate?

That said I have every confidence that the trick will work again.

 

[EalingBlue2]

I am going to stay on the topic of a Referendum in 4 weeks - interesting though such a wider discussion could be.

In terms of 'made up' I consider the recent 'dodgy dossiers' from the Treasury and other groups to be highly suspect.

I say this because I have worked at senior levels in Whitehall departments - including the Treasury. I have first hand experience of how economic and financial models are 'managed' to give the answer you wish to put out there. The economic specialists in the leave group are right to challenge just what 'assumptions' have been loaded as inputs to ensure that the outputs are all so grim. Perhaps load all the worst case scenarios and include none of the 'up-side'??

It is a well-proven approach that electorates have fallen for over decades - why do people think that almost every Treasury forecast over so many years has been inaccurate?

That said I have every confidence that the trick will work again.

Don't disagree that a hell of a lot of data is dodgy but whilst o take any treasury data with a pinch of salt I take it a lot more seriously than data from politicians and biased political think tanks. As in general civil servants and treasury at least a have some pretence and attempt at being impartial

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I am going to stay on the topic of a Referendum in 4 weeks - interesting though such a wider discussion could be.

In terms of 'made up' I consider the recent 'dodgy dossiers' from the Treasury and other groups to be highly suspect.

I say this because I have worked at senior levels in Whitehall departments - including the Treasury. I have first hand experience of how economic and financial models are 'managed' to give the answer you wish to put out there. The economic specialists in the leave group are right to challenge just what 'assumptions' have been loaded as inputs to ensure that the outputs are all so grim. Perhaps load all the worst case scenarios and include none of the 'up-side'??

It is a well-proven approach that electorates have fallen for over decades - why do people think that almost every Treasury forecast over so many years has been inaccurate?

That said I have every confidence that the trick will work again.

Basically because most people look up to these people in a sub conscience way and assume that whatever they say when it comes to forecasting must be fairly accurate as they're talking about things that the general public don't understand through no fault of their own - There's a few remainers who post on here who profess to be economically literate but always avoid the question about where the EU is going with this fiscal and currency project, the polarisation of society in Europe due to Eu policies - best ignore it eh or it's an inconvenient truth...

 

[purplenose]

There aren't any are there a London centric government policy and an inability to compete with Asia and South America saw to that.

I am no lover of the tories, who as we know destroyed both of those industries, we know they always favour the well off, and we know that the current Tory leadership is the most evil, corrupt, dishonest, incompitant, shower of shit in living memory. We have no credible opposition to these goons, which is utterly criminal and Corbyn and his following of freaks should hang their heads in shame. Infact when you take this into consideration there would be a school of thought suggesting we would be better off being part of one big European state ruled completely from Brussels with the idiots in parliment done away with all together.....it probably couldnt be much worse in some respects.

However it would be worse and we as a nation would not be able to do something about it. Vote out and we will be rid of Cameron and probably Osborne too, We will still have the power to vote these idiots out, We will still have our own currency, we will still have our own armed forces and control over them. Most off all we will still have some hope and some control over our own destiny.

The bottom line is that in a months time Britain, Scotland, Northen Ireland, Wales, and England will all vote on the existence of their countries other than in name only. I was born English/British and want to stay that way thank you very much.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Self determination? Really?
Our government shits all over us already. Take away any checks and balances the EU does and the fuckers would have a field day.

This I cand and do agree with. However, the British public have more say over who our government is and what it can do than it does the EU Parliament.

 

[mcfc1632]

Don't disagree that a hell of a lot of data is dodgy but whilst o take any treasury data with a pinch of salt I take it a lot more seriously than data from politicians and biased political think tanks. As in general civil servants and treasury at least a have some pretence and attempt at being impartial

Hmmmm - 'pretence' is the key word here. I have sat in many rooms with many senior Civil Servants - up to Perm Sec level - musing over how economic/financial/evaluation models can be designed to bring forward a pre-disposed position of ministers and Secretaries of State - but I will not go too much into that on an open forum.

What I will say clearly is that senior Civil Servants are very protective of their career paths and for every example you could name of someone that has taken a principled stance there are a mass that have managed the outcome to please their master(s).

You are right to be sceptical of the data from think-tanks, who secure a lot of their funding and the majority of their revenue streams from being 'respected' by government, but you should (only IMHO) take the outpourings from the remain camp equally with a healthy level of scepticism.