EU referendum

[sir baconface]

The anti immigration extremes don't want a debate they aren't interested in a debate, aren't interested in facts or root causes , unthinking blame and emotion is much easier

That's the way extremes work. Thank you.

 

[urban genie]

The boat is sinking because of nothing to do with those people it is sinking because .

Thatcher , even Blair created a society where you are all conditioned every day to resent the poor, the weak. Where is fine for a billionaire tax dodger to push the agenda that immigrants are to blame for problems. Where people who live in slums prefer to divide and blame each other for the issue rather than loom at the society that has let them down. You have a government who wants to get rid of the NHS, millionaire bankers who near bankrupted us all and still have their 5 homes and media moguls who tell you lies whilst avoiding the country in case they have to pay a penny of tax. That's why the boat is sinking

Maybe going to fix the engine or patch the holes, empty out water would be a more worthwhile exercise than standing at the back pushing people back into the water as the boat continues to sink

Can I also add that despite widespread anxiety about a shortage of housing supply and room for immigrants, there are 610,123 empty homes in England, according to the government. Of these, 205,821 have been unoccupied for six months or more, the official definition of "long-term" emptiness and many owned by the super rich as investments rather than habitations, yet we have the worst homelessness problem for decades nationwide, and have English nationals like Philip Green fucking over some people in this country while living it up in france dogding tax, he's the kind of person who should vilified by the press and dragged over the coals, not someone coming here to work and pay tax as nearly all immigrants do.

 

[EalingBlue2]

This is what tickles me, they know the in-depth content of something they despise.
I fucking hate marzipan, it's why I never eat Christmas cake.

Why would you attempt to be ignorant of what you stand against? Utterly bizarre!

 

[sir baconface]

The boat is sinking because of nothing to do with those people it is sinking because .

Thatcher , even Blair created a society where you are all conditioned every day to resent the poor, the weak. Where is fine for a billionaire tax dodger to push the agenda that immigrants are to blame for problems. Where people who live in slums prefer to divide and blame each other for the issue rather than loom at the society that has let them down. You have a government who wants to get rid of the NHS, millionaire bankers who near bankrupted us all and still have their 5 homes and media moguls who tell you lies whilst avoiding the country in case they have to pay a penny of tax. That's why the boat is sinking

Maybe going to fix the engine or patch the holes, empty out water would be a more worthwhile exercise than standing at the back pushing people back into the water as the boat continues to sink

So pile them all in and lecture them on nasty-wasty Maggie while they sink.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Can I also add that despite widespread anxiety about a shortage of housing supply and room for immigrants, there are 610,123 empty homes in England, according to the government. Of these, 205,821 have been unoccupied for six months or more, the official definition of "long-term" emptiness and many owned by the super rich as investments rather than habitations, yet we have the worst homelessness problem for decades nationwide, and have English nationals like Philip Green fucking over some people in this country while living it up in france dogding tax, he's the kind of person who should vilified by the press and dragged over the coals, not someone coming here to work and pay tax as nearly all immigrants do.

Spot on , this mentality that the poor are to blame for poverty and the rich are always deserving of wealth is awful. Yes there are worthy billionaires who create their wealth by progressing the world and yes there are leeches who exploit welfare but there are also millions condemned for life to relative poverty by their birth and where they grew up and there are also many many who make their wealth by nothing more than birth, exploitation, Ponzi economics and speculation.

When the wealthy leave homes sitting empty or government can't be bothered to use housing that is the fault of immigrants .

It's because tax , responsibility and society are dirty words and it is better to blame than to support, it is better divide than unite and it is better to own a better car or DVD player than educate the kids of the country.

 

[EalingBlue2]

So pile them all in and lecture them on nasty-wasty Maggie while they sink.

No get them in and get them to help et the boat sailing again everyone working towards the overall interest of staying afloat and getting to land. Better to right the situation than sink whilst blaming each other.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Why would you attempt to be ignorant of what you stand against? Utterly bizarre!

Stand against?!
I'm filling up at your dedication.
Do you read the cartoons in the Mail as well, and the womens section, to check out flapjack recipes and spanx pants?
You, in common with many on the left, assume anyone with differing political opinion, is absorbing everything put up in right wing media,
and so must have been brainwashed by nasty Rupert et al, and it infuriates you that they don't want to read what you read.
Nothing can be discussed on here without the Daily bastard Mail being quoted, and the amusing irony here is that you must read it voraciously every day.
Personally, I prefer more reactionary publications ;-)

 

[sir baconface]

No get them in and get them to help et the boat sailing again everyone working towards the overall interest of staying afloat and getting to land. Better to right the situation than sink whilst blaming each other.

You are probably the most ideologically driven poster on this thread and you don't even appreciate the irony of your arguments.

Right, I'm off out with the dogs. Or to you: miserable beasts, subjugated by man and Maggie for millennia to facilitate their nefarious needs.

 

[TonyM]

Can I also add that despite widespread anxiety about a shortage of housing supply and room for immigrants, there are 610,123 empty homes in England, according to the government. Of these, 205,821 have been unoccupied for six months or more, the official definition of "long-term" emptiness and many owned by the super rich as investments rather than habitations, yet we have the worst homelessness problem for decades nationwide, and have English nationals like Philip Green fucking over some people in this country while living it up in france dogding tax, he's the kind of person who should vilified by the press and dragged over the coals, not someone coming here to work and pay tax as nearly all immigrants do.

Just curious, could some of the homes be holiday homes? If so are people not entitled to by a cottage by the sea if they can afford to? Or maybe they are b&bs that are often empty outside peak times. And are some out in the sticks or in a pettiful state that you wouldn't let anyone stay in?

In Ireland they throw these numbers out too while the reality is a housing crisis that is as bad by modern standards as the tenement situation of the early 1900s.

The truth is that a country can only house so many and it needs to manage it fairly and effectively. To do that you need to manage demand and supply to some extent. Supply takes a very long time so control over demand is even more important. The only hope there is to control population grown. To do that you need a visa system.

If you don't have a finger on the pulse and have control then you are just waiting for it to blow up. Has anyone forecasted population growth accurately before? I doubt they have or will given the variables. It's common sense.

 

[Monkfish]

The UK is such an amazing country for of the worlds greatest people that any issue it ever has must be the fault of immigrants

The reason the Daily Mail et al are repeatedly brought up is simple, as immigration has been repeatedly shown to benefit the country where else do you get the idea from that its the source of all our ills? I suppose an element is just human nature, fear the dark man, fear the Jew, fear the Arab etc but a big chunk is our perpetually right wing racist media, and dont go thinking you have to read it every day to be influenced, it pervades our culture

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You are probably the most ideologically driven poster on this thread and you don't even appreciate the irony of your arguments.

Right, I'm off out with the dogs. Or to you: miserable beasts, subjugated by man and Maggie for millennia to facilitate their nefarious needs.

And I'm off out to the supermarket with the wife to get a chicken that's been properly tortured prior to being dispatched, some cabbage that has been picked by
a peasant that's been lashed by an overseer, and new spuds raised by a billionaire Cheshire landowner who specialises in indulging his lust with the daughters of local serfs.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

I don't think anyone wants to give up the biggest trade zone in the world.... It's what comes with it, free movement agreements, political integration and bundles of red tape all of which were never voted for but were foist upon us, is what people want rid of!

I know many might already know this so sorry if I didnt need to bring it up but do you know that even counties like Switzerland (not in the EU) had to have a "free movement agreement and bundles of red tape"? In fact Switzerland have major problems at the moment.....You might be surprised to hear that: Switzerland and Norway have far higher levels of immigration than the UK! People are going to have a big shock if they think running away from the EU is going to change anything, in fact its going to be a whole lot worse.....its like cutting off our nose to spite your face....as mentioned most the problems are alot closer to home and nothing will change until we get our own house in order....Below is another report to show that the reasons some people are giving for leaving the EU are completely misplaced...In the case of Switzerland..."migration and trade are closely bound together in the Swiss relationship with the EU" and if people think we will still be able to tap into one of the biggest, if not THE biggest markets in the world without having "free movement"....many will get a shock......If people are going to vote out atleast do it for the right reasons.....so far many are pointing to issues that are just not going away whether we leave or not......

"Norway and Switzerland's EU immigration arrangements explained. Switzerland is not a member of the EU, but the bilateral Free Movement of Persons Agreement has removed restrictions on EU citizens wishing to live or work in Switzerland"

http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/

Britain's EU immigration debate: Norway and Switzerland are not the answer
Immigration and border control are increasingly cited as the main reasons for why the UK should leave the EU. Those advocating exit often mention Norway and Switzerland as models the UK should follow outside the EU. However, this briefing shows that Switzerland and Norway have far higher levels of EU immigration than the UK as a proportion of their populations. If the UK had the same net EU immigration rate as Switzerland, it would mean nearly 400,000 more EU migrants a year.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Spot on , this mentality that the poor are to blame for poverty and the rich are always deserving of wealth is awful. Yes there are worthy billionaires who create their wealth by progressing the world and yes there are leeches who exploit welfare but there are also millions condemned for life to relative poverty by their birth and where they grew up and there are also many many who make their wealth by nothing more than birth, exploitation, Ponzi economics and speculation.

When the wealthy leave homes sitting empty or government can't be bothered to use housing that is the fault of immigrants .

It's because tax , responsibility and society are dirty words and it is better to blame than to support, it is better divide than unite and it is better to own a better car or DVD player than educate the kids of the country.

In Norway which is a left wing country everybody's tax contribution is published. I could look up what you pay in tax and you look up what I pay in tax. It's all transparent.

Also mentally their perspective is completely different. Those who contribute high amounts in tax are actually thanked as contributing to the pot. It's competely the other way round here.

Do not assume all wealthy people are tax dodgers some of the stereotypes you use are pathetic. Like your 'it will take you the same time to go to Benidorm comment. ' A snide jab based on your assumptions about me. Your levels of patronism and stereotypes , socially and economically is as bad as the daily mail.

 

[urban genie]

Just curious, could some of the homes be holiday homes? If so are people not entitled to by a cottage by the sea if they can afford to? Or maybe they are b&bs that are often empty outside peak times. And are some out in the sticks or in a pettiful state that you wouldn't let anyone stay in?

B&B's and holiday homes would still be registered as occupied, because they are in use. walk round parts of manchester there are boarded up terrace and detatched houses in areas and semi detatched, surely they can be aquired by the council if they have been left long term empty and where the owners have no interest in there use(obviously some compensation paid), renovated and sold/rented rather than sit empty and slowly decaying

 

[Chippy_boy]

You wrote -
A) If we leave, we'll put people out of work, raise prices, depress the economy and we'll pretty much all be worse off for the foreseeable future. Probably for the next 5 to 10 year and quite possibly, forever. Not only is this the projection of virtually every independent analyst, frankly it's bloody obvious.

You deliberated on the in/out options for a month, came out last week as in and have followed up that it is 'bloody obvious' that your exceptionally pessimistic view will prevail so not that bloody obvious really?

You misunderstand.

What is "bloody obvious" is that we will be worse off if we leave. I have never doubted that for 1 second, and frankly, it is bloody obvious. We have zero chance of negotiating a tariff-free trade deal with the EU, zero. Our trade with the EU will decline. We will have some businesses de-camping from the UK and the jobs with them. We may be able in time to offset these disadvantages with more trade elsewhere, but that will take time at best.

What is perhaps debatable is whether all this is worth it, in order to get full sovereignty back. That's what caused me to reflect for a considerable amount of time.

 

[purplenose]

And you can see CURRENT examples of barbarism in hell-holes all over the globe. Let me guess though. That will be solely down to the legacy us nasty Brits inflicted on a lily-white world.

Indeed this does make me laugh at the legions of dweebs nimbys and hand wringing do gooders who harp on about the sins of our ancestors, yet never seem to mention the fact that far more recently were it not for this country the EU would never have happened in the first place. Forget that without this country the whole continent would have been under Nazi rule, or perhaps Soviet.

The inners wont rest until our country is one of those hell holes you mention.

 

[YPhrunts]

You misunderstand.

What is "bloody obvious" is that we will be worse off if we leave. I have never doubted that for 1 second, and frankly, it is bloody obvious. We have zero chance of negotiating a tariff-free trade deal with the EU, zero. Our trade with the EU will decline. We will have some businesses de-camping from the UK and the jobs with them. We may be able in time to offset these disadvantages with more trade elsewhere, but that will take time at best.

What is perhaps debatable is whether all this is worth it, in order to get full sovereignty back. That's what caused me to reflect for a considerable amount of time.

Nothing will change for two years. That is a considerable time. Who know who would follow our example and leave or make plans to hold their own referendum. There might be more trading partners than you seem to think. But you're probably right, we are a fucking useless country when it comes to business and finance and without the apron strings of the EU we will plummet into an oblivious world of the horse and cart and starvation.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

You misunderstand.

What is "bloody obvious" is that we will be worse off if we leave. I have never doubted that for 1 second, and frankly, it is bloody obvious. We have zero chance of negotiating a tariff-free trade deal with the EU, zero. Our trade with the EU will decline. We will have some businesses de-camping from the UK and the jobs with them. We may be able in time to offset these disadvantages with more trade elsewhere, but that will take time at best.

What is perhaps debatable is whether all this is worth it, in order to get full sovereignty back. That's what caused me to reflect for a considerable amount of time.

I accept there will be a period of uncertainty and that is not good, I think we can get through it though. They were predicting Armageddon after the banks collapsed and we recovered better than any other eu country.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

You misunderstand.

What is "bloody obvious" is that we will be worse off if we leave. I have never doubted that for 1 second, and frankly, it is bloody obvious. We have zero chance of negotiating a tariff-free trade deal with the EU, zero. Our trade with the EU will decline. We will have some businesses de-camping from the UK and the jobs with them. We may be able in time to offset these disadvantages with more trade elsewhere, but that will take time at best.

What is perhaps debatable is whether all this is worth it, in order to get full sovereignty back. That's what caused me to reflect for a considerable amount of time.

That's a very honest appraisal imo.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I accept there will be a period of uncertainty and that is not good, I think we can get through it though. They were predicting Armageddon after the banks collapsed and we recovered better than any other eu country.

There were plenty of Euro-sceptics who confidently predicted the imminent end of the Euro when the banks collapsed too.