EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%

  • Total voters
    1,050
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The link - http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/

However,i see no problem with the article being posted as its very useful and easily accesible for all,which is the important issue.

Thanks for the link, I was just aware of Rics concern about posting articles or excerpts without links.

It is good to see that we all appear agree (even Brexiters) that we can accept there is such a thing as an unbiased point of view - especially one which is aimed at the common person in the street.
 
The most simplistic and balanced article I've seen to date that may help undecideds to make up their mind. I post this as a firm Brexiteer even though the conclusion goes against my view, but only just, but it is justified. I know the intellectual heavyweights on here may find fault but it is the first piece I've seen that attempts to talk to the common man.

It is fully credited to the Daily Mirror (06/06/16) but I cannot find a link to list, so apologies to Ric if thus actually contravenes BMs T&C's and I understand if it's taken down!

The Article

IT’S the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make. It affects our economy, foreign policy, immigration policy, security and sovereignty.

Our vote on whether the UK should leave the EU will reverberate through our lifetimes, and those of our children and grandchildren.

If you’ve already made up your mind how to vote on June 23, good. I’m not campaigning – I don’t want to change it.

If you haven’t, my aim is to help you ignore the spin and sales to weigh up the right decision for you, your community, our nation and the wider world too.

There are no facts

My mailbag’s been drowning with questions. The biggest being: “Please just tell us the facts, what’ll happen if we leave?” I’m sorry, but actually there are no facts about what happens next.

Anyone who tells you they KNOW what will happen if we leave the EU is a liar.

Predicting exact numbers for economic, immigration or house price change is nonsense. What’s proposed is unprecedented. All the studies, models and hypotheses are based on assumptions – that’s guesstimate and hope.

So accept the need to wrestle with uncertainty. The EU referendum is far from a black and white issue; there are more shades of grey than EL James’s bookshelf.

Most politicians try to come across as doubt-free. Yet like life, it’s a mix, and it would be better if both sides admitted that.

The good

There are things many tout as the EU’s strengths. It makes us part of arguably the world’s largest trading block, boosting UK businesses and jobs.

It strengthens workers’ rights and gives consumers both common standards and rights valid everywhere.

There’s freedom for us to live and work anywhere in the EU, easy travel and cheap mobile roaming.

Plus sustained peace among EU nations was one of the reasons for the community’s foundation. Though whether it’s happened due to the EU binding nations or its coincidental membership of Nato is questioned by some.

The bad

Then there are the things many decry. Some of its regulations are unsuited to the UK. I met the Chancellor, George Osborne, recently over my concern that the Mortgage Credit Directive, or at least the UK interpretation of it, is stymying people’s ability to get a cheap remortgage deal.

While we don’t have unattended borders, as we’re not part of the European (not just EU) Schengen area, freedom of movement of course means other EU citizens can move here – either an unaffordable crowding out of our schools, NHS and culture, or a boost to the size, wealth and talent of our nation, depending on your view.

For many – worst of all – the EU organisation is without doubt distant, only vaguely accountable, inefficient, and out of sync with much of Europe’s population. Yet were it made more democratic, some would still worry as it would then have a stronger claim to more sovereignty.

Note, though, that if we leave the EU, it’s the UK’s system that would pick up the slack, and some castigate its democratic deficit too. It’s also managed by civil servants, though here controlled by elected officials.

We have an unelected legislature in the Lords, and only 37% of those who voted picked Tory, yet they govern.

The ugly

Finally there are the misunderstandings. From myths about the EU banning curved bananas to comments such as “I’m out due to interference of the European Convention on Human Rights,” even though that’s a separate treaty from the EU, and this vote doesn’t affect it.

So how do you square this and the myriad of other issues? For most people this comes down to doing a risk assessment.

This is all about risk

A vote for Brexit is unquestionably economically riskier than a vote to remain. Yet don’t automatically read risk as a bad thing. It simply means there’s more uncertainty – a greater variance of possible outcomes. Much of the debate stems around free trade issues – which in simple terms mean no tariffs or taxes on imports or exports between countries.

Leaving the EU risks us being left on the sidelines. A shrinking power, spurned after a bitter divorce from our neighbours, who, wanting to discourage other leavers, offer us hideous trading conditions, while the rest of the world sees us as too small to bother with.

Or we could in the long run become a nimble low-tax, low-regulation, tiger economy.

Trading unfettered with all nations across the globe, able to create our own rules and speedily reacting as a niche player to a changing world.

The likely truth is somewhere between the two. But most independent analysis suggests Brexit will be detrimental to the economy, and on balance I think a wobble of economic uncertainty is more likely, at least in the short to medium term. Though again, it’s about chance, it’s not definite, and of course money isn’t the sole issue.

A vote IN has a level of uncertainty too. The future is always a journey, and the economies and politics of some EU countries are far from stable. But overall less change is likely.

■ So if you’re thinking you don’t want to take the risk the economy could go bad, vote IN.

■ If you’re thinking things are so poor already, you’re willing to take the chance it could get worse in the hope it could get better, vote OUT.

I’ve focused financially as it’s more my area. But similarly you can do a risk analysis on most issues.

Take those who see EU freedom of movement as a bad. Brexit will leave the UK free to create its own immigration policy. Yet anything is possible.

There’s a risk that, say, French and German leaders could demand freedom of movement as a condition of a future free trade agreement with the single market which, if agreed, would see us in a similar boat as now but without our seat at the EU top table.

The economy outweighs EU fees

EU fees have become a hot potato politically but it’s worth establishing the scale of the debate. The size of the UK’s annual economic activity was £1,800billion in 2015.

The annual fees to the EU in 2015 were £18billion but we get a rebate, after that the fees are £13billion, plus there’s the money the EU spends in the UK – so what it actually costs us is £8.5billion.

So while fees for the EU club are huge, they’re dwarfed by the scale of our economy. That doesn’t diminish them as a political issue but it does mean they can’t be viewed in isolation.

Just a 1% economic change is £18billion a year. The IN campaign’s worst case figure says Brexit could cost 7.5%, so that’s £135billion.

Some OUT economists say the gain could be 4%, so £72billion. Regardless of which is right, it shows how you think the nation’s finances will swing should outweigh your view on fees.

You’ll never know if you made the right decision

The only way to make the right decision is based on your political attitude to the EU, your gut instinct, and how risk-averse you are in each area that matters to you. I hope this article has helped at least put it in context.

Yet frustratingly, we’ll never know the right answer as we can only ever know how one outcome turns out.

Sadly that means the spittle and bitterness over this will rage on long beyond June 23. And indeed that’s where I should finish this, but…

How am I likely to vote?

A couple of weeks ago I was so stunned I dropped my wallet (you can imagine how tightly I cling to that) when a Stronger In Europe leaflet popped through my door with my face and quote at the top. I hadn’t been asked for permission, nor am I campaigning for either side.

The quote was accurate. It came from ITV’s The Agenda where I was put on the spot with a direct question.

I’m not a politician, so I answered, saying: “On balance of probability, it is more likely we’ll have less money in our pockets if we vote to leave.” On its own, especially as I cautioned it was a fine call, it isn’t a glowing endorsement.

However, in the context of the leaflet it seems more.

Indeed ever since a November poll petrifyingly said I’m the UK’s most-trusted person on the EU vote, even some of my minor utterances have been picked up. Including when asked directly how I was likely to vote.

My concern is, having tried to present arguments from both sides – I don’t want anyone to read this and feel later I’d hidden something that is out there.

I’m generally risk-averse, and that pushes me just towards an IN vote for safety, maybe 55% to 45%. Yet just as my dream holiday isn’t necessarily yours, no more is my choice of what’s right a call for you to follow me. Far better is follow the logic above.

The author is Martin Lewis of the Moneysavingexpert website.
The quote can be found on his site.
 
Thats meaningless nonsense as per from you, you have a real problem with the meaning of words dont you ?, just so its nice an clear explain how any of those takes away rights covered under the oath of office.

Now you would think that that was a clear question that required a simple answer ?, but no, you do what is normal for you and waffle by trying to repeat your nonsense in a different way as below.


Just to help you read that again look at your argument and think. Your argument is that since 1689 anything that gives any foreign body any superiority, Pre eminence, authority etc since then is illegal if not done through a referendum. You state that Heaths decision not to have a referendum made the joining the EU thus.

However what you fail to realise or deliberately ignore is if you apply that logic by the same token the Act of union was illegal. Therefore any decision made in the U.K. Since 1707 and involving any Scottish MPs votes , lairds or any Scottish authority such as civil service is as illegal as any EU treaty. Indeed a Scottish senior officer on the army would be illegal according to your argument. Any supra national body such as NATO would also be illegal. Most ironically you have quoted a notoriously bigoted lord who himself was Scottish and thus not able to have any authority, power etc in England according to you by law.

Some lowly academic somewhere tried to be clever you copy and pasted without much thought - it is utter tripe and if taken literally would render nearly anything done in 350 years illegal

I quoted your "Utter tripe" so you can revisit and find anywhere the answer to what you were asked, and as you seem to suffer badly from word blindness that is how any of those acts TAKES AWAY rights covered under the oat of office, I will suggest you look at the Queens full title before attempting yet more bullshite ;0)

The "Notoriously bigoted lord" was the Lord chancellor of the UK at the time.
 
Britain’s trade deficit with other European Union countries is running at a record high level ahead of the referendum next month, official figures show.

The latest healthcheck from the Office for National Statistics on goods coming in and going out of the UK reveal that the gap between exports and imports in the first three months of 2016 widened by £0.7bn to £23.9bn.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit#comments
 
The author is Martin Lewis of the Moneysavingexpert website.
The quote can be found on his site.

I did wonder if it might be Martin Lewis and you have confirmed it. He may not be everyone's cup of tea but I like the way he puts things across in a straightforward way. He's a Blue too, I think, so fair fcuks to him.
 
Now you would think that that was a clear question that required a simple answer ?, but no, you do what is normal for you and waffle by trying to repeat your nonsense in a different way as below.




I quoted your "Utter tripe" so you can revisit and find anywhere the answer to what you were asked, and as you seem to suffer badly from word blindness that is how any of those acts TAKES AWAY rights covered under the oat of office, I will suggest you look at the Queens full title before attempting yet more bullshite ;0)

The "Notoriously bigoted lord" was the Lord chancellor of the UK at the time.
You need to understand English and Scottish law and also that not everyone is a monarch. If you are 100% right, mortgage your house , take it to court you will be a hero! I am quite happy to be proved wrong when you win your case - until then it's tripe
 
Gove vs the experts.



Edit: I cant seem to get the video to embed, but click on the facebook icon and it will take you to it.
 
You need to understand English and Scottish law and also that not everyone is a monarch. If you are 100% right, mortgage your house , take it to court you will be a hero! I am quite happy to be proved wrong when you win your case - until then it's tripe

You flapped your trap and got called on your nonsense, answer the question
 
Britain’s trade deficit with other European Union countries is running at a record high level ahead of the referendum next month, official figures show.

The latest healthcheck from the Office for National Statistics on goods coming in and going out of the UK reveal that the gap between exports and imports in the first three months of 2016 widened by £0.7bn to £23.9bn.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit#comments

It's a shame we don't have more products that the rest of the EU wish to buy.
 
B&B's and holiday homes would still be registered as occupied, because they are in use. walk round parts of manchester there are boarded up terrace and detatched houses in areas and semi detatched, surely they can be aquired by the council if they have been left long term empty and where the owners have no interest in there use(obviously some compensation paid), renovated and sold/rented rather than sit empty and slowly decaying

A lovely young Polish couple have just moved into the house next door but one to me. This house has been empty for over 3 years after the lad sold it to a buy-to-letter. I sent a couple of friends to look, and my daughter, but the place was a shit hole inside and they all steered clear. The new people have already put a new door on, fixed the fence, done up the garden and even took the weeds out of the chimney pot. And they cleared up next doors shit as well.
 
You're right - surely no-one will want to come here then and we don't have a problem???!!?

How can restricting the labour market and thereby pushing up employers' costs possibly be good for the economy? Answer: it isn't.

Its called playing on a level playing field,Just like the germans did in the 90ish(a lot off companies payed cheap wages to immigrants(turks to be honest) and that had a effect on the german economy.their government stated you pay the going rates,which entailed fking them off and employing locals..
But you still didn't answer the question,Is it right that british taxpayers fund large companies who pay low wages then,
Seeing dave said 40% are getting £10k in in work benefits & some are getting up to £20k..
 
You want to ignore the people who help start up companies? Yeah they will be doing it to make money but they have to make successful companies to do it.

They don't start up companies. They use other peoples money (investors) and take very little risk with their own. In a successful start-up this returns them a tax free percentage of profits and future profits plus fees and admin with no risk to the VCist
 
Its called playing on a level playing field,Just like the germans did in the 90ish(a lot off companies payed cheap wages to immigrants(turks to be honest) and that had a effect on the german economy.their government stated you pay the going rates,which entailed fking them off and employing locals..
But you still didn't answer the question,Is it right that british taxpayers fund large companies who pay low wages then,
Seeing dave said 40% are getting £10k in in work benefits & some are getting up to £20k..

Don't forget the Brit immigrants. Half of Manchesters roofers worked in Germany in the 80's/90's.
 
Regarding Cameron, I agree the forked tongue approach isn't great but he's employed different tactics for different opponents. Something we wanted Pellers to do for most of the season!

Cameron has already agreed to block TTIP from affecting our NHS.

That's only the one good think about Cameron regarding TTIP.But who ever is giving him his script should be sacked(do they believe we forget what comes out off their mouths).
How can they state will would do well then next its all doooooooooooooooooom... But agree with the pellers scenario ha.ha.
 
They don't start up companies. They use other peoples money (investors) and take very little risk with their own. In a successful start-up this returns them a tax free percentage of profits and future profits plus fees and admin with no risk to the VCist

I missed the term "Help". They may not "start companies", But they help the people that are, they go to the VC's to get money to start up companies or to fund growth, without them its a lot harder to start up a company.
 
How's your Brazil political shenanigans going, sounds entertaining down there. We are going through the worlds most boring election here, two boring candidates who agree on nearly everything trying to pretend the other one if going to ruin the country by doing the same as they are planning to do themselves. I also live in one of the safest seats in the country where the MP is a complete cock but there is little chance of him going.
It´s a joke over here. A proper coup, she is right in what she says. I read somewhere yesterday that they have stopped delivering food to her house under government orders. The majority of people who voted for in the senate for impeachment of the president are under investigation for fraud (this isn´t falsifying a taxi ride this is taking millions in bribes)
To save a bit of cash the new guy said that they weren´t going to employ DRs for the poor people any more and they had to get insurance. Which went down well. He rescinded it when it was pointed out that the poor people are about to burn the cities to the ground.
 
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