EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%

  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
I could give you a detailed breakdown on the battle of Agincort as well, but I'd be going on the best sources available at the time.

As with any history and especially history where economics is concerned, looking at macroeconomics and a top down view from multiple sources gives a greater and more detailed view than personal anecdotal experience when discussing how a country as a whole performs.

Look at it another way, you're a Lloyds TSB shareholder in 2008, I talk to you now and you say that investing in banking 2008-09 was fucking appalling. I speak with HRH Mansour and he says it was an amazing time to be in banking stock at the time. You're both correct in your own experiences but neither tells the whole story.

In 1973, the uk economy was huge, 5th in the world and bigger than China or India and with greater GDP growth than the US, France or Germany. Things fell apart after that. The reason I keep posting that fact is that others are saying the EU helped "the sick man of Europe from the floor and to 5th in the world" which isn't true.

We were already a huge and strong economy before we joined in 1973, we had issues after that (when already part of the EEC, which did fuck all to help us), we are strong because we are strong. Forgive me for using another analogy but it reminds me of a conversation I had today with a Muslim mate of mine, he claimed Ali was the greatest because his Muslim faith gave him strength. My argument was that his faith was incidental, he was great as Cassius Clay, he continued to be great after his conversation as well. He was great because of who he was.
SWP there is some good history in there but you negate a few things. One yes we were doing OK by them but only because we had lagged chronically behind Japan, Germany, US etc sot over two decades post the way and had been in an absolute mess. You also neglect the fact the Soviet Union was above us as well and dropped below because it broke up. You also neglect the fact that on the century before that we had fallen from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th to 5th. You also neglect the fact that there was a real bubble in the early 70's before the crash just as there was in 2006 and have selected a tiny period in economic terms to set a very misleading narrative.

Your facts are right, your context has been twisted and if you are going to blame being in the EU from going from 5th to 5th you have to blame not being in the EU for falling from 1st to 5th.

Or you could just be honest and talk about a late 60's early 70's boom after two decades of decline - in fact relative decline for the best part of 70 years that became a bubble and burst and that the EU which was not even around had little or nothing to do with the decline, the boom, the bubble or the burst. All those were because of an out dated industry that wasn't destroyed enough by war to start again like Japan or Germany but was too outdated to compete with those that did
 
And that's a fair opinion to hold and you have as many votes as I have.

If I didn't work in the industry I do then I may vote a different way. The good thing is that each person in this thread, whatever their view, is actually giving the question some thought unlike many of the apathetic populace of the U.K. Who think the whole thing interrupts their Xfactor viewing.
Many will share that, I'm the opposite I am pretty sure out would be in my interest as I think despite what our Aussie politicians say it would be .
But that's the same with politics generally liberal or Tories are in my individual interest but I morally disagree with them and will always vote For what's most likely to be right for society than just me as in the long run that will be better for me too.
 
Just sharing this article on TTIP, which might concern a few on both sides of the in/out debate.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

Thanks sir Baconface. It's only in the last fortnight that Cameron has promised that the NHS would be exempt from TTIP after a long struggle by campaigners.

It's the second time in recent years that American companies were ready to capture chunks of the the NHS. The first time was with Andrew Lansley's Liberating the NHS the NHS shambles that signified any qualified provider would be able to provide NHS Services. Many of the big US Health Providers pulled back then when it took a long time to clarify tender eligibility rules and these rules were tightened to.focus on the competence of the organisations. It's didn't stop Virgin Care from taking a share of the Primary Care "Market", particulalry in the South!
 
Thanks sir Baconface. It's only in the last fortnight that Cameron has promised that the NHS would be exempt from TTIP after a long struggle by campaigners.

It's the second time in recent years that American companies were ready to capture chunks of the the NHS. The first time was with Andrew Lansley's Liberating the NHS the NHS shambles that signified any qualified provider would be able to provide NHS Services. Many of the big US Health Providers pulled back then when it took a long time to clarify tender eligibility rules and these rules were tightened to.focus on the competence of the organisations. It's didn't stop Virgin Care from taking a share of the Primary Care "Market", particulalry in the South!

Sticking my neck out a bit but I'm thinking a Cameron promise in the current climate may not reassure everyone on here. Possibly even your good self included.

Putting that aside, would individual countries be able to cherry-pick anyway?
 
As far as economic facts go we are always heading towards recession. Its just that sometimes we have a boom along the way.
I respect that @SWP's back has declared his interest as a business man and intention to vote in for stabilities sake, while recognising the advantages of out. The truth is probably that UK plc will chug along with the usual cyclic ups and downs regardless in the medium to long lerm, but with a possible initial financial wobble post brexit. This should be enough to ensure that the average UK citizen in mortgage and other debt up to their chin will vote remain to ensure stability. Sadly we are not in a position to risk a spike in interest rates or a housing slump just to avoid the obvious drawbacks of EU membership.
 
Sticking my neck out a bit but I'm thinking a Cameron promise in the current climate may not reassure everyone on here. Possibly even your good self included.

Putting that aside, would individual countries be able to cherry-pick anyway?

Yes we can never be 100 percent sure of Cameron's promises but this is one area where many EU Countires were worried about but left it to us to raise our voices first. The Tories already claimed that TTIP wouldn't be in TTIP (but few believed this) and Cameron is now charged with ensuring any Treat is water right on this point.

It is an interesting point about national exemptions. The EU usually loath this and that was part of the reason Caemron found it hard recently to get concessions eg from the Poles on family benefits!

You raise good points . I don't know whether any TTIP deal will exempt Sectors for individual Member States or exclude particular sectors across the EU. The EU policy makers negotiators may need to have a seriou rethink now that the required number of exemptions are growing and there are rumours that the Potential Treaty has been parked for now!
 
T
It's not democratic for the people of the U.K. Though (who've been in Union for 300 years)

The whole of the U.K. Can vote one way and not make the slightest jot of difference. You can say the same about Manchester voting one way or Scotland but they got to hold a referendum as well.
That's the trouble the UK is too big to make any real meaningful local difference and too small to influence the world alone . Government should be more local and more international and at the most rational and appropriate level for that element of policy.
 
Yes we can never be 100 percent sure of Cameron's promises but this is one area where many EU Countires were worried about but left it to us to raise our voices first. The Tories already claimed that TTIP wouldn't be in TTIP (but few believed this) and Cameron is now charged with ensuring any Treat is water right on this point.

It is an interesting point about national exemptions. The EU usually loath this and that was part of the reason Caemron found it hard recently to get concessions eg from the Poles on family benefits!

You raise good points . I don't know whether any TTIP deal will exempt Sectors for individual Member States or exclude particular sectors across the EU. The EU policy makers negotiators may need to have a seriou rethink now that the required number of exemptions are growing and there are rumours that the Potential Treaty has been parked for now!

Cheers Tim. Surprised this hasn't had a higher public profile.
 
As far as economic facts go we are always heading towards recession. Its just that sometimes we have a boom along the way.
I respect that @SWP's back has declared his interest as a business man and intention to vote in for stabilities sake, while recognising the advantages of out. The truth is probably that UK plc will chug along with the usual cyclic ups and downs regardless in the medium to long lerm, but with a possible initial financial wobble post brexit. This should be enough to ensure that the average UK citizen in mortgage and other debt up to their chin will vote remain to ensure stability. Sadly we are not in a position to risk a spike in interest rates or a housing slump just to avoid the obvious drawbacks of EU membership.

Very fair comments mate....thanks! I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments and they were very well balanced...As you have rightly said... no matter what your views are on the EU...alot of the average, working class people in the UK, who have mortgages and other debt, are just not in a position to risk a spike/negative impact that leaving would bring in the short term...Alot of people live month to month...expecting someone with a mortgage and other debts to think about any possible long term gains, is just too bigger risk for most people....thanks again for your comments....
 
The EU then becomes free to consolidate the Eurozone without the british vetoing everything. So it could make them stronger.
There is a lot of truth in that, we have been the petulant teenager for way to long, too sulky to influence for good but still dependent enough to be staying at home. I tend to think of its am in vote we need to buck up and become a positive force for the Europe we want rather than the reluctant teenager.

I think soon enough, within decades Europe will be superceeeded by something bigger and countries in and out of the EU will become more and more interdependent every single day so it may not matter.

The question is do we want to shape what comes or be a spectator along for the ride?
 
The EU then becomes free to consolidate the Eurozone without the british vetoing everything. So it could make them stronger.
How's your Brazil political shenanigans going, sounds entertaining down there. We are going through the worlds most boring election here, two boring candidates who agree on nearly everything trying to pretend the other one if going to ruin the country by doing the same as they are planning to do themselves. I also live in one of the safest seats in the country where the MP is a complete cock but there is little chance of him going.
 
The most simplistic and balanced article I've seen to date that may help undecideds to make up their mind. I post this as a firm Brexiteer even though the conclusion goes against my view, but only just, but it is justified. I know the intellectual heavyweights on here may find fault but it is the first piece I've seen that attempts to talk to the common man.

It is fully credited to the Daily Mirror (06/06/16) but I cannot find a link to list, so apologies to Ric if thus actually contravenes BMs T&C's and I understand if it's taken down!

The Article

IT’S the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make. It affects our economy, foreign policy, immigration policy, security and sovereignty.

Our vote on whether the UK should leave the EU will reverberate through our lifetimes, and those of our children and grandchildren.

If you’ve already made up your mind how to vote on June 23, good. I’m not campaigning – I don’t want to change it.

If you haven’t, my aim is to help you ignore the spin and sales to weigh up the right decision for you, your community, our nation and the wider world too.

There are no facts

My mailbag’s been drowning with questions. The biggest being: “Please just tell us the facts, what’ll happen if we leave?” I’m sorry, but actually there are no facts about what happens next.

Anyone who tells you they KNOW what will happen if we leave the EU is a liar.

Predicting exact numbers for economic, immigration or house price change is nonsense. What’s proposed is unprecedented. All the studies, models and hypotheses are based on assumptions – that’s guesstimate and hope.

So accept the need to wrestle with uncertainty. The EU referendum is far from a black and white issue; there are more shades of grey than EL James’s bookshelf.

Most politicians try to come across as doubt-free. Yet like life, it’s a mix, and it would be better if both sides admitted that.

The good

There are things many tout as the EU’s strengths. It makes us part of arguably the world’s largest trading block, boosting UK businesses and jobs.

It strengthens workers’ rights and gives consumers both common standards and rights valid everywhere.

There’s freedom for us to live and work anywhere in the EU, easy travel and cheap mobile roaming.

Plus sustained peace among EU nations was one of the reasons for the community’s foundation. Though whether it’s happened due to the EU binding nations or its coincidental membership of Nato is questioned by some.

The bad

Then there are the things many decry. Some of its regulations are unsuited to the UK. I met the Chancellor, George Osborne, recently over my concern that the Mortgage Credit Directive, or at least the UK interpretation of it, is stymying people’s ability to get a cheap remortgage deal.

While we don’t have unattended borders, as we’re not part of the European (not just EU) Schengen area, freedom of movement of course means other EU citizens can move here – either an unaffordable crowding out of our schools, NHS and culture, or a boost to the size, wealth and talent of our nation, depending on your view.

For many – worst of all – the EU organisation is without doubt distant, only vaguely accountable, inefficient, and out of sync with much of Europe’s population. Yet were it made more democratic, some would still worry as it would then have a stronger claim to more sovereignty.

Note, though, that if we leave the EU, it’s the UK’s system that would pick up the slack, and some castigate its democratic deficit too. It’s also managed by civil servants, though here controlled by elected officials.

We have an unelected legislature in the Lords, and only 37% of those who voted picked Tory, yet they govern.

The ugly

Finally there are the misunderstandings. From myths about the EU banning curved bananas to comments such as “I’m out due to interference of the European Convention on Human Rights,” even though that’s a separate treaty from the EU, and this vote doesn’t affect it.

So how do you square this and the myriad of other issues? For most people this comes down to doing a risk assessment.

This is all about risk

A vote for Brexit is unquestionably economically riskier than a vote to remain. Yet don’t automatically read risk as a bad thing. It simply means there’s more uncertainty – a greater variance of possible outcomes. Much of the debate stems around free trade issues – which in simple terms mean no tariffs or taxes on imports or exports between countries.

Leaving the EU risks us being left on the sidelines. A shrinking power, spurned after a bitter divorce from our neighbours, who, wanting to discourage other leavers, offer us hideous trading conditions, while the rest of the world sees us as too small to bother with.

Or we could in the long run become a nimble low-tax, low-regulation, tiger economy.

Trading unfettered with all nations across the globe, able to create our own rules and speedily reacting as a niche player to a changing world.

The likely truth is somewhere between the two. But most independent analysis suggests Brexit will be detrimental to the economy, and on balance I think a wobble of economic uncertainty is more likely, at least in the short to medium term. Though again, it’s about chance, it’s not definite, and of course money isn’t the sole issue.

A vote IN has a level of uncertainty too. The future is always a journey, and the economies and politics of some EU countries are far from stable. But overall less change is likely.

■ So if you’re thinking you don’t want to take the risk the economy could go bad, vote IN.

■ If you’re thinking things are so poor already, you’re willing to take the chance it could get worse in the hope it could get better, vote OUT.

I’ve focused financially as it’s more my area. But similarly you can do a risk analysis on most issues.

Take those who see EU freedom of movement as a bad. Brexit will leave the UK free to create its own immigration policy. Yet anything is possible.

There’s a risk that, say, French and German leaders could demand freedom of movement as a condition of a future free trade agreement with the single market which, if agreed, would see us in a similar boat as now but without our seat at the EU top table.

The economy outweighs EU fees

EU fees have become a hot potato politically but it’s worth establishing the scale of the debate. The size of the UK’s annual economic activity was £1,800billion in 2015.

The annual fees to the EU in 2015 were £18billion but we get a rebate, after that the fees are £13billion, plus there’s the money the EU spends in the UK – so what it actually costs us is £8.5billion.

So while fees for the EU club are huge, they’re dwarfed by the scale of our economy. That doesn’t diminish them as a political issue but it does mean they can’t be viewed in isolation.

Just a 1% economic change is £18billion a year. The IN campaign’s worst case figure says Brexit could cost 7.5%, so that’s £135billion.

Some OUT economists say the gain could be 4%, so £72billion. Regardless of which is right, it shows how you think the nation’s finances will swing should outweigh your view on fees.

You’ll never know if you made the right decision

The only way to make the right decision is based on your political attitude to the EU, your gut instinct, and how risk-averse you are in each area that matters to you. I hope this article has helped at least put it in context.

Yet frustratingly, we’ll never know the right answer as we can only ever know how one outcome turns out.

Sadly that means the spittle and bitterness over this will rage on long beyond June 23. And indeed that’s where I should finish this, but…

How am I likely to vote?

A couple of weeks ago I was so stunned I dropped my wallet (you can imagine how tightly I cling to that) when a Stronger In Europe leaflet popped through my door with my face and quote at the top. I hadn’t been asked for permission, nor am I campaigning for either side.

The quote was accurate. It came from ITV’s The Agenda where I was put on the spot with a direct question.

I’m not a politician, so I answered, saying: “On balance of probability, it is more likely we’ll have less money in our pockets if we vote to leave.” On its own, especially as I cautioned it was a fine call, it isn’t a glowing endorsement.

However, in the context of the leaflet it seems more.

Indeed ever since a November poll petrifyingly said I’m the UK’s most-trusted person on the EU vote, even some of my minor utterances have been picked up. Including when asked directly how I was likely to vote.

My concern is, having tried to present arguments from both sides – I don’t want anyone to read this and feel later I’d hidden something that is out there.

I’m generally risk-averse, and that pushes me just towards an IN vote for safety, maybe 55% to 45%. Yet just as my dream holiday isn’t necessarily yours, no more is my choice of what’s right a call for you to follow me. Far better is follow the logic above.
 
Good post BigJoe

For further clarification here is a summary of our main veto and exemption powers (taken from a blog by the Tory MP for Plymouth):

We have specific exemptions around ......the Euro; ever-closer union, protection of the pound. Britain has a veto on new member states joining the EU, as does every other current member state. Talk of a European army? Britain again has a veto.

I hope this helps!
 
Just seen a you gov poll result on the telly, Leave leading by 4%.
Only a few days ago, we were seeing 1/8 for remain.
All gripping stuff, this.
 
He is the Gove erner for sure

Q98 Chair: One is: if “good” requires pupil performance to exceed the national average, and if all schools must be good, how is this mathematically possible?

Michael Gove: By getting better all the time.

Q99 Chair: So it is possible, is it?

Michael Gove: It is possible to get better all the time.

Q100 Chair: Were you better at literacy than numeracy, Secretary of State?

Michael Gove: I cannot remember.


what has any of that got to with the subject of the Faisal Islam/Gove interview?
 
The most simplistic and balanced article I've seen to date that may help undecideds to make up their mind. I post this as a firm Brexiteer even though the conclusion goes against my view, but only just, but it is justified. I know the intellectual heavyweights on here may find fault but it is the first piece I've seen that attempts to talk to the common man.

It is fully credited to the Daily Mirror (06/06/16) but I cannot find a link to list, so apologies to Ric if thus actually contravenes BMs T&C's and I understand if it's taken down!

The Article

IT’S the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make. It affects our economy, foreign policy, immigration policy, security and sovereignty.

Our vote on whether the UK should leave the EU will reverberate through our lifetimes, and those of our children and grandchildren.

If you’ve already made up your mind how to vote on June 23, good. I’m not campaigning – I don’t want to change it.

If you haven’t, my aim is to help you ignore the spin and sales to weigh up the right decision for you, your community, our nation and the wider world too.

There are no facts

My mailbag’s been drowning with questions. The biggest being: “Please just tell us the facts, what’ll happen if we leave?” I’m sorry, but actually there are no facts about what happens next.

Anyone who tells you they KNOW what will happen if we leave the EU is a liar.

Predicting exact numbers for economic, immigration or house price change is nonsense. What’s proposed is unprecedented. All the studies, models and hypotheses are based on assumptions – that’s guesstimate and hope.

So accept the need to wrestle with uncertainty. The EU referendum is far from a black and white issue; there are more shades of grey than EL James’s bookshelf.

Most politicians try to come across as doubt-free. Yet like life, it’s a mix, and it would be better if both sides admitted that.

The good

There are things many tout as the EU’s strengths. It makes us part of arguably the world’s largest trading block, boosting UK businesses and jobs.

It strengthens workers’ rights and gives consumers both common standards and rights valid everywhere.

There’s freedom for us to live and work anywhere in the EU, easy travel and cheap mobile roaming.

Plus sustained peace among EU nations was one of the reasons for the community’s foundation. Though whether it’s happened due to the EU binding nations or its coincidental membership of Nato is questioned by some.

The bad

Then there are the things many decry. Some of its regulations are unsuited to the UK. I met the Chancellor, George Osborne, recently over my concern that the Mortgage Credit Directive, or at least the UK interpretation of it, is stymying people’s ability to get a cheap remortgage deal.

While we don’t have unattended borders, as we’re not part of the European (not just EU) Schengen area, freedom of movement of course means other EU citizens can move here – either an unaffordable crowding out of our schools, NHS and culture, or a boost to the size, wealth and talent of our nation, depending on your view.

For many – worst of all – the EU organisation is without doubt distant, only vaguely accountable, inefficient, and out of sync with much of Europe’s population. Yet were it made more democratic, some would still worry as it would then have a stronger claim to more sovereignty.

Note, though, that if we leave the EU, it’s the UK’s system that would pick up the slack, and some castigate its democratic deficit too. It’s also managed by civil servants, though here controlled by elected officials.

We have an unelected legislature in the Lords, and only 37% of those who voted picked Tory, yet they govern.

The ugly

Finally there are the misunderstandings. From myths about the EU banning curved bananas to comments such as “I’m out due to interference of the European Convention on Human Rights,” even though that’s a separate treaty from the EU, and this vote doesn’t affect it.

So how do you square this and the myriad of other issues? For most people this comes down to doing a risk assessment.

This is all about risk

A vote for Brexit is unquestionably economically riskier than a vote to remain. Yet don’t automatically read risk as a bad thing. It simply means there’s more uncertainty – a greater variance of possible outcomes. Much of the debate stems around free trade issues – which in simple terms mean no tariffs or taxes on imports or exports between countries.

Leaving the EU risks us being left on the sidelines. A shrinking power, spurned after a bitter divorce from our neighbours, who, wanting to discourage other leavers, offer us hideous trading conditions, while the rest of the world sees us as too small to bother with.

Or we could in the long run become a nimble low-tax, low-regulation, tiger economy.

Trading unfettered with all nations across the globe, able to create our own rules and speedily reacting as a niche player to a changing world.

The likely truth is somewhere between the two. But most independent analysis suggests Brexit will be detrimental to the economy, and on balance I think a wobble of economic uncertainty is more likely, at least in the short to medium term. Though again, it’s about chance, it’s not definite, and of course money isn’t the sole issue.

A vote IN has a level of uncertainty too. The future is always a journey, and the economies and politics of some EU countries are far from stable. But overall less change is likely.

■ So if you’re thinking you don’t want to take the risk the economy could go bad, vote IN.

■ If you’re thinking things are so poor already, you’re willing to take the chance it could get worse in the hope it could get better, vote OUT.

I’ve focused financially as it’s more my area. But similarly you can do a risk analysis on most issues.

Take those who see EU freedom of movement as a bad. Brexit will leave the UK free to create its own immigration policy. Yet anything is possible.

There’s a risk that, say, French and German leaders could demand freedom of movement as a condition of a future free trade agreement with the single market which, if agreed, would see us in a similar boat as now but without our seat at the EU top table.

The economy outweighs EU fees

EU fees have become a hot potato politically but it’s worth establishing the scale of the debate. The size of the UK’s annual economic activity was £1,800billion in 2015.

The annual fees to the EU in 2015 were £18billion but we get a rebate, after that the fees are £13billion, plus there’s the money the EU spends in the UK – so what it actually costs us is £8.5billion.

So while fees for the EU club are huge, they’re dwarfed by the scale of our economy. That doesn’t diminish them as a political issue but it does mean they can’t be viewed in isolation.

Just a 1% economic change is £18billion a year. The IN campaign’s worst case figure says Brexit could cost 7.5%, so that’s £135billion.

Some OUT economists say the gain could be 4%, so £72billion. Regardless of which is right, it shows how you think the nation’s finances will swing should outweigh your view on fees.

You’ll never know if you made the right decision

The only way to make the right decision is based on your political attitude to the EU, your gut instinct, and how risk-averse you are in each area that matters to you. I hope this article has helped at least put it in context.

Yet frustratingly, we’ll never know the right answer as we can only ever know how one outcome turns out.

Sadly that means the spittle and bitterness over this will rage on long beyond June 23. And indeed that’s where I should finish this, but…

How am I likely to vote?

A couple of weeks ago I was so stunned I dropped my wallet (you can imagine how tightly I cling to that) when a Stronger In Europe leaflet popped through my door with my face and quote at the top. I hadn’t been asked for permission, nor am I campaigning for either side.

The quote was accurate. It came from ITV’s The Agenda where I was put on the spot with a direct question.

I’m not a politician, so I answered, saying: “On balance of probability, it is more likely we’ll have less money in our pockets if we vote to leave.” On its own, especially as I cautioned it was a fine call, it isn’t a glowing endorsement.

However, in the context of the leaflet it seems more.

Indeed ever since a November poll petrifyingly said I’m the UK’s most-trusted person on the EU vote, even some of my minor utterances have been picked up. Including when asked directly how I was likely to vote.

My concern is, having tried to present arguments from both sides – I don’t want anyone to read this and feel later I’d hidden something that is out there.

I’m generally risk-averse, and that pushes me just towards an IN vote for safety, maybe 55% to 45%. Yet just as my dream holiday isn’t necessarily yours, no more is my choice of what’s right a call for you to follow me. Far better is follow the logic above.

The link - http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/

However,i see no problem with the article being posted as its very useful and easily accesible for all,which is the important issue.
 
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