EU referendum

[YPhrunts]

I'll be voting in because the EU has played a huge contribution in keeping peace in Europe.

My father lived through the 2nd World War as a young child. He went with my Grandmother, Auntie and Uncle from Gorton to live in Hadfield at the outset of the war. He remembered being back in Gorton one night when an air raid took place. He said he was carried to an air raid shelter by his uncle as the search lights went up and the guns were shooting at the German bombers. After that my gran never let him go back to Gorton while the war was still on. I tell this story because when I really think about it it wasn't that long ago.

I've studied a bit of history, in particular the two world wars. The utter carnage and devastation that took place cannot truly be comprehended.

It seems to me everyone thinks the world wars were so long ago that they bare little or no relevence to our current time but that's where I believe we are making a mistake.

Nigel Farage was asked in one of the debates about how he saw the EU in 20 years from now, and he gleefully envisaged an EU that had collapsed totally.

If we vote to leave it's not hard to envisage a domino affect.

Who are countries going to blame next when things aren't going well, and there's no EU to blame? Well we can always start blaming each other again. Anyone, as long as it's not ourselves.

For all it's faults the EU is surely better option than the sheer hell that preceeded it.

Immigration? The Economy? It's the peace stupid!

I'm interested to know what 'in' means to you. Is it 1/ a Europe that we constantly try to hinder or 2/ do you want a complete capitulation on everything from joining Schengen and the Euro , in other words complete integration?
If your answer is 1/ then I cannot really see the point of voting in because you don't really want to integrate fully.
If your answer is 2/ Then be prepared for anything the Union tells you to do in future. That might also mean your children being forced into conscription to support a European army. If you think that is far fetched just remember that Lithuania is about to introduce conscripton and another Eastern European state is discussing it. You may think this wonderful peace of which you have enjoyed under the protection of NATO will continue but Trump has put a question mark under that and Junker is prepared to tool up with a European army and give America the cold shoulder. Anything could happen after that. Your kids could be called up to go and fight a war for the benefit of bureacrats in Brussels. And you would have no reason to refuse it as you are happy to be part of it. Think carefully what you are doing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36565036

 

[Machiavelli]

Yes i think it is the key issue for many tbh

Not 'immigration' in itself of course. That's way too simplistic. We clearly need and want immigrants. But the system of immigration and our ability to control it is what is at stake. Yes I think that if we vote leave then immigration will have been a key factor.

Doh.

Yeah sorry mate, that was way too simplistic. I agree with everything you've said.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I'm interested to know what 'in' means to you. Is it 1/ a Europe that we constantly try to hinder or 2/ do you want a complete capitulation on everything from joining Schengen and the Euro , in other words complete integration?
If your answer is 1/ then I cannot really see the point of voting in because you don't really want to integrate fully.
If your answer is 2/ Then be prepared for anything the Union tells you to do in future. That might also mean your children being forced into conscription to support a European army. If you think that is far fetched just remember that Lithuania is about to introduce conscripton and another Eastern European state is discussing it. You may think this wonderful peace of which you have enjoyed under the protection of NATO will continue but Trump has put a question mark under that and Junker is prepared to tool up with a European army and give America the cold shoulder. Anything could happen after that. Your kids could be called up to go and fight a war for the benefit of bureacrats in Brussels. And you would have no reason to refuse it as you are happy to be part of it. Think carefully what you are doing.

Perhaps neither? Your points 1 and 2 both take a negative view on the EU with no positive offer.

Maybe the OP has a more positive view on what the EU means to him?

 

[halfcenturyup]

I never called anyone racist. I said the main issue for outers as shown by repeated polls was immigration, he and others disagreed despite evidence to the contrary.

Oh good God, the guy wasn't even replying to you. He replied to someone who said most people who think immigration is an issue hate economics and are racists (something like that, I can't even remember it was so long ago), then you chip in with your valid point about immigration being number one issue for most pepole who want out. Valid but completely irrelevant to the point being made. Why on God's green earth do people think just saying the same thing over and over makes it relevant?

 

[YPhrunts]

Perhaps neither? Your points 1 and 2 both take a negative view on the EU with no positive offer.

Maybe the OP has a more positive view on what the EU means to him?

There are no other assumptions to make other than points 1 or 2. Point 3 would be leaving and that would be the 'positive' alternative but he's not interested in that is he.
There is no abstention.
He has already stated his 'positive' reason for staying and he misunderstands the situation as two posters had already pointed out to him before me.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Whatever happens next week this referendum has showed the ugly side to the human race....whether its the horrible, terrible actions of one man this week or the sad words spoken by that Spanish lady in question time the other night who said...."I feel so offended....we're not the enemy Mr Gove"....or the lies/scare tactics of "both the "in" and "out" campaigns....whether we like it or not this has split the country and will continue to do so, long after this vote has happened and I could even see it isolate communities.(just like that Spanish person I mentioned above, who has been working here 14 years) This post isnt about supporting stay or leave.....I just look around at the debates, watch the news and listen to people at work talking about immigration etc, etc..... and just think........what a mess.....

 

[YPhrunts]

Whatever happens next week this referendum has showed the ugly side to the human race....whether its the horrible, terrible actions of one man this week or the sad words spoken by that Spanish lady in question time the other night who said...."I feel so offended....we're not the enemy Mr Gove"....or the lies/scare tactics of "both the "in" and "out" campaigns....whether we like it or not this has split the country and will continue to do so, long after this vote has happened and I could even see it isolate communities.(just like that Spanish person I mentioned above, who has been working here 14 years) This post isnt about supporting stay or leave.....I just look around at the debates, watch the news and listen to people at work talking about immigration etc, etc..... and just think........what a mess.....

I think exactly the same when I'm stuck in traffic jams every day somewhere in Kent, in fact ANYWHERE in Kent and I can see an endless line of cars in front of me while I waste my life watching the vehicle in front of me for ever and I think....who is it that wants to import more people into this country and ruin the quality of my life even more than it is already by encouraging yet more and more cars and less and less car parking spaces and I think .....what a mess.

 

[Leech]

I think exactly the same when I'm stuck in traffic jams every day somewhere in Kent, in fact ANYWHERE in Kent and I can see an endless line of cars in front of me while I waste my life watching the vehicle in front of me for ever and I think....who is it that wants to import more people into this country and ruin the quality of my life even more than it is already by encouraging yet more and more cars and less and less car parking spaces and I think .....what a mess.

Maybe those new people will pay for and build new roads.

 

[YPhrunts]

Maybe those new people will pay for and build new roads.

Right that will be even more agricultural land lost to concrete and tarmac and you would be happy that we will have to import even more food than we do already?
Our population to land mass ratio is already the highest in Europe apart from Cyprus and Gibraltar.

Where are you going to build more car parks in our villages and towns? There just is no more room to expand. I've had to return from shopping trips because I couldn't find a parking space.

Canterbury is a nightmare to navigate around and even further north in places like Brigg which used to be a pleasant Lincolnshire market town it has now become as congested as hell. The council are desperate to find more parking areas but there is just no space available.
It is estimated that we will have to build a city the size of Coventry every year just to stand still. And you want that?

 

[Manchester_lalala]

Right that will be even more agricultural land lost to concrete and tarmac and you would be happy that we will have to import even more food than we do already?
Our population to land mass ratio is already the highest in Europe apart from Cyprus and Gibraltar.

Where are you going to build more car parks in our villages and towns? There just is no more room to expand. I've had to return from shopping trips because I couldn't find a parking space.

Canterbury is a nightmare to navigate around and even further north in places like Brigg which used to be a pleasant Lincolnshire market town it has now become as congested as hell. The council are desperate to find more parking areas but there is just no space available.
It is estimated that we will have to build a city the size of Coventry every year just to stand still. And you want that?

I work in brigg sometimes and it is a bugger for parking.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Perhaps neither? Your points 1 and 2 both take a negative view on the EU with no positive offer.

Maybe the OP has a more positive view on what the EU means to him?

The original view I expressed was based purely on nearly every piece of film I've seen about this vote. Sadly to a huge majority of people immigration is front and centre of the debate and that is why if the Remain campaign addressed it, they would win hands down.

Immigration does come into my personal considerations but it alone is not a deciding or influencing factor. I am more concerned about the economy, the excess money we're handing over to the EU, the massive bureaucracy (waste if money) that is the EU, and the lack of accountability that is the EU. Furthermore, I have concerns about not necessarily immigration, but the lack of control we have at our borders and our inability to deport people or refuse entry to known criminals. Like I said, immigration does add to my concerns but as a stand alone issue its not enough to persuade me to want to leave and if the Remain campaign drew up plans to deal with it and explain how they would deal with it, that alone would not buy my vote - but I do suspect it would buy literally millions of others' votes.

I think this is Camerons single biggest mistake in all his pre-referendum negotiations. He's failed to represent and moreover convey the feelings of the population he represents to his European counterparts.

Hope this clears up my personal view!

 

[mcfc1632]

He never will , it's not had any effect on here and unless you are broadcasting me to the good expats of Qatar I doubt it is going to change anyone. As I said before anyone that weak minded shouldn't be allowed a vote anyway.

You have been guilty in the past young SWP of misrepresenting things not least the fact I work for Goldman Sachs which was news to me .

In the case (I assume you mean here ) which so angered the Brexit mob, you should take that up with the editors of the Australian Financial Review and Financial Times websites they cited Brexit fears driving down the market not me . I hadn't even been aware of the poll that spooked the market till reading about the crash.

Someone said that you and others with your incessant banging on in a manner that is so patronising and condescending have likely pushed undecided voters towards Leave. I think that this is likely right - and is in common with the outcome of Gideon's approach - not a very successful debating outcome. The rub is that it is a referendum and the vote of any one of those pathetic weak-minded people carries the same weight has yours.

 

[Yaya_Tony]

I'm interested to know what 'in' means to you. Is it 1/ a Europe that we constantly try to hinder or 2/ do you want a complete capitulation on everything from joining Schengen and the Euro , in other words complete integration?
If your answer is 1/ then I cannot really see the point of voting in because you don't really want to integrate fully.
If your answer is 2/ Then be prepared for anything the Union tells you to do in future. That might also mean your children being forced into conscription to support a European army. If you think that is far fetched just remember that Lithuania is about to introduce conscripton and another Eastern European state is discussing it. You may think this wonderful peace of which you have enjoyed under the protection of NATO will continue but Trump has put a question mark under that and Junker is prepared to tool up with a European army and give America the cold shoulder. Anything could happen after that. Your kids could be called up to go and fight a war for the benefit of bureacrats in Brussels. And you would have no reason to refuse it as you are happy to be part of it. Think carefully what you are doing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36565036

What a load of crap. My own grandfather, whose brother and uncle died in ww1, recognises that conscription will never happen again. The kids of today wouldn't stand for it. They'd be making videos on YouTube about it!! Tbh i think a form of national service wouldn't be a bad thing, but that's a different discussion. It works in Finland.

Tcib, top fella, but you're wrong mate. Estonia, Brussels, they aren't making laws on the national parks. It's a trade deal. I'm not a fan of bureaucracy for the sake of it, all the kids I've spoken to don't think of themselves as English or British, they call themselves European. And it's them we all should be thinking about. That selfish word rises its head again.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

The original view I expressed was based purely on nearly every piece of film I've seen about this vote. Sadly to a huge majority of people immigration is front and centre of the debate and that is why if the Remain campaign addressed it, they would win hands down.

Immigration does come into my personal considerations but it alone is not a deciding or influencing factor. I am more concerned about the economy, the excess money we're handing over to the EU, the massive bureaucracy (waste if money) that is the EU, and the lack of accountability that is the EU. Furthermore, I have concerns about not necessarily immigration, but the lack of control we have at our borders and our inability to deport people or refuse entry to known criminals. Like I said, immigration does add to my concerns but as a stand alone issue its not enough to persuade me to want to leave and if the Remain campaign drew up plans to deal with it and explain how they would deal with it, that alone would not buy my vote - but I do suspect it would buy literally millions of others' votes.

I think this is Camerons single biggest mistake in all his pre-referendum negotiations. He's failed to represent and moreover convey the feelings of the population he represents to his European counterparts.

Hope this clears up my personal view!

So Cameron would be set to win this vote if he had told the leaders of other EU Countries that their people are inferior to ours?

 

[urban genie]

I think this is going round in circles now with a week to go, most on this are already pretty much decided either way and doubt anything is gonna change their mind within a week.
Latest polling averaging out various polls

Remain 43%
leave 49%
Undecided 8%

Also interesting graphic in the FT on the demographics of the 2 sides


Although it is missing some sections of society (north west ans 40-49 age range for example)

 

[BigJoe#1]

So Cameron would be set to win this vote if he had told the leaders of other EU Countries that their people are inferior to ours?

Talk about a mis-quote Tim! How on earth do you come to such a conclusions? I have not said nor even suggested anyone us inferior to anyone else. I thought you were a sound balanced poster, should I reconsider my opinion?

 

[Yaya_Tony]

I think this is going round in circles now with a week to go, most on this are already pretty much decided either way and doubt anything is gonna change their mind within a week.
Latest polling averaging out various polls

Remain 43%
leave 49%
Undecided 8%

Also interesting graphic in the FT on the demographics of the 2 sides

Illustrative.

 

[urban genie]

One question not asked or answered is, if we vote leave is it just the EU the exit side want us out of as we will still be members of the council of europe, the european space agency, and some extent Euratom, or is it the whole hog?

 

[halfcenturyup]

I think this is going round in circles now with a week to go, most on this are already pretty much decided either way and doubt anything is gonna change their mind within a week.
Latest polling averaging out various polls

Remain 43%
leave 49%
Undecided 8%

Also interesting graphic in the FT on the demographics of the 2 sides

It's a damn shame that people 40-49 years old don't get to vote ....

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Talk about a mis-quote Tim! How on earth do you come to such a conclusions? I have not said nor even suggested anyone us inferior to anyone else. I thought you were a sound balanced poster, should I reconsider my opinion?

Lighten up BigJoe! I wasnt accusing you of thinking like that - but what was Cameron supposed to say. The EU would have known where Dave stood since he focussed his negotiations on family and unemployment benefits - as well as opposing political integration

It chimes what you were saying the other week that if you are going to make a go of the EU you have to allies and probably a level Of committment to help to influence the agenda.