EU referendum

[Tim of the Oak]

I think Ealing, Tim and Chippy are actually on a shift rota

A combination of working in Glasgow, Manchester, Leeds, London and Manchester this week had caught up with me lol. I fonts know what the other guys excuses are lol!

 

[halfcenturyup]

Your separation of these issues is purely technical. Everyone knows that Bojo joined the Brexiters to progress his Tory leadership aims. If Brexit win then Bojo is a shoe in for the next Tiry leader and probably PM. Can you not understand this or do you choose to bury your head in the sand!

So you are saying that people should be voting in this referendum on personalities rather than the issues?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

That is true and a reason quite a few people have mentioned to me that they have decided to vote leave - yet they simply cannot stop themselves - voting self-harm.

The reality is (and this is more in response to SWP's post) that the hatred in the national media campaign on immigration had got out of hand. I made this point more than a week ago. Anyone denying the recklessness of parts of the national media on this issue most think the world is flat.

I am no do gooder e.g. I wasn't one of the many Bkuemooners complaining about the Jihadi John song!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

So you are saying that people should be voting in this referendum on personalities rather than the issues?

On the substance of what will happen in the next months and years.

 

[halfcenturyup]

On the substance of what will happen in the next months and years.

So Johnson is an irrelevance. As is Farage, Cameron and all the other twats.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

And how many times have politicians given us supposedly cast-iron assurances or promises that later proved to be completely worthless?

George Bush Snr in 1988 - "Watch my lips; no new taxes".
Barraxk Obama's pledge to shut Guantanamo Bay.
David Cameron/George Osborne in 2010 - We will eliminate the budget deficit by 2015. They still haven't succeeded. Now it's 2019 but that's looking less and less likely.
David Cameron - There will be no top down reorganisation of the NHS, in 2010. They then undertook the biggest top-down reorganisation of the NHS in its history.
David Cameron - We have no plans to increase VAT, before the 2010 election. They then increased it to 20%.
David Cameron - No cuts to tax credits, before the 2015 election. Then he cut them.
David Cameron - We will cap care costs in 2016, before the 2015 election. They then abandoned that promise.
Etc.
Etc.

And these are elected politicians so forgive me if I treat any promises of the un-elected EU Commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom with a large pinch of salt. This is the woman who openly said (about the TTIP negotiations) "I don't take my mandate from the European people".

Good post PB and yes many politicians would sell their Grannies for the right price. The difference this time is that the Tories have had a trial (of sorts) on what TTIP would mean for the NHS and the Government (in the main) recognise a political disaster when they see one.

Andrew Lansley's "Liberating the NHS" top down reconfiguration of the NHS cost roughly £4 billion. He was stopped from opening the NHS to US insurance companies on a big scale but that's what would have happened if Lansley handnt been slapped down.

Of course we need more guarantees on TTIP. For me the key thing is the outcomes rather than the process of getting there. We can be pretty confident that when Bojo and Gove lead the Government the NHS will be privatised. We can see what Gove has done to education and most Londonders views Bojo's term as major as a disaster - hence why the Tories have been bombed out!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

So Johnson is an irrelevance. As is Farage, Cameron and all the other twats.

Bojo will be PM if Brexit wins. Do you see that as an irrelevance?

 

[steviemc]

That is extremely offensive to people who risked their lives and in the case of quite a few of my forefathers died fighting or in the case of pacifist risked life and limb to save comrades , but I doubt you meant it as offensively as it could be taken. They fought precisely so Europe could be peaceful , tolerant and strongly against the ideology of people like Farage.

Please don't speak on behalf of the my forefathers - you have no right to such an unfounded presumption.

Furthermore, this referendum isn't about politicians. The sooner people grasp this simple concept, and stop pretending to foresee the pattern of future party electorates based on the referendum outcome, the better.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Please don't speak on behalf of the my forefathers - you have no right to such an unfounded presumption.

Furthermore, this referendum isn't about politicians. The sooner people grasp this simple concept, and stop pretending to foresee the pattern of future party electorates based on the referendum outcome, the better.

It is a worrying trend from posters on here trying to tell people what they can and cannot write. I thought the Brexiters were the fans of denocracy?

You are trying to close down a genuine line of discussion. Politics includes personalities as well as policies etc!

 

[CityStu]

Bojo will be PM if Brexit wins. Do you see that as an irrelevance?

He'll probably be PM if Brexit doesn't win as well though. That, or it'll be Osbourne who's proved himself as pretty inept and uninspiring.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Bojo will be PM if Brexit wins. Do you see that as an irrelevance?

To this referendum Yes absolutely

 

[urban genie]

He'll probably be PM if Brexit doesn't win as well though. That, or it'll be Osbourne who's proved himself as pretty inept and uninspiring.

People forget gove has designs on the tory leadership and Teresa may has been very silent sitting in the wings letting the boys slug it out.

 

[CityStu]

People forget gove has designs on the tory leadership and Teresa may has been very silent sitting in the wings letting the boys slug it out.

I don't think either are likeable enough. People still remember Gove's unpopularity in education and I think May had to be more vocal in this to become a serious contender.

 

[SWP's back]

The reality is (and this is more in response to SWP's post) that the hatred in the national media campaign on immigration had got out of hand. I made this point more than a week ago. Anyone denying the recklessness of parts of the national media on this issue most think the world is flat.

I am no do gooder e.g. I wasn't one of the many Bkuemooners complaining about the Jihadi John song!

And FWIW I have only every said that immigration is a non issue for me and that I believe wholeheartedly in free movement of labour.

I only replied to the post about the Express to play devils advocate.

I don't agree with the stance for voting out on immigration grounds. But then again, I couldn't really.

 

[SWP's back]

No one claimed that , I merely took objection to the comments suggesting they wanted a greater Germany and no sovereignty, which is fair enough. fighting facism in ww2 doesn't seem particularly unusual to me unless you were the Daily Mail proprietor or surname was Mosely - do you find it strange?

But why would reality get in the way of cheap shots? If that is all you have left or as much as you are capable of? Play the man when you don't have the talent to play the ball?

No cheap shot, I wasn't the only poster that read your post as intimating that you spoke with greater gravitas on what people fought for based on your own grand father.

And given the demographics of the out polls, I'd say you couldn't be sure which way he would have voted. I certainly wouldn't dream to state which way my own late grandfather would have voted.

 

[SWP's back]

Bojo will be PM if Brexit wins. Do you see that as an irrelevance?

I think he will be next PM either way to be honest.

But it should be an irrelevance yes. He's be PM for two/three years before a GE was called and you can vote in whomever you wish.

 

[urban genie]

I don't think either are likeable enough. People still remember Gove's unpopularity in education and I think May had to be more vocal in this to become a serious contender.

Yeah but Gove is popular amongst tory mps, So I could see him using wining the referendum to his advantage just like boris wants to, gidieon is a dead duck in my opinion.

Back onto the referendum issue lets see how they all behave on andrew marr, peston and sunday poltics and see if they can all act like responsible adults in both camps.

For me it comes down to workers rights and looking arfter the common population and I cannot see a tory government ever doing that, if the human rights, h&s, labour rights, working time directive maternity, holiday, sickness rights etc were guaranteed not to
fucked about with I would have leaned to an exit, but I just don't trust the tories to protect those things when there are not bound to them. And them that say I am assuming the tories will be the ones in power, well they have 3 years left at least to screw over the British public more.

 

[cibaman]

I think he will be next PM either way to be honest.

But it should be an irrelevance yes. He's be PM for two/three years before a GE was called and you can vote in whomever you wish.

If he takes over after a Leave vote he has to completely reshape his cabinet to ensure they'll back him in the negotiations and have Brexiters running the big depts. A Johnson govt after a Leave vote would be totally different from a Johnson gvt after a Remain vote.

Yes, I could always vote for Corbyn in 2020. But I see it more realistically as a choice between a Johnson (Leave) gvt and a Johnson (Remain) gvt. I'm voting on Thursday for the latter.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

This bit "Also love his threat about not allowing other countries to do what their people want? You could not make it up."
He never said that, that is the bit i am saying you made up.

Oh dear Ken you are wrong again. Next time click on the actual hyperlink before commenting. The words taken are as follows:

IN the event of Brexit, Europe should " act fast to avoid other countries starting a similar process" he said

"There must be no question of Denmark, the Netherlands, Poland deciding they want the same status"

 

[Blue Hefner]

Had a leaflet through the door from, what I assume is an unofficial 'remain' group. 'Don't let Farage speak for you....'

He doesn't, I am more than capable of making up my own mind. It just seems like another attempt to label all 'outers' as UKIP supporters - I suppose to have to do something when you are running out of real arguments.