EU referendum

[BigJoe#1]

Joe you seem to look at history as if you can choose a) and that b) and c) don't exist and if a world exists where simple easy choices can be made without difficult other scenarios.

This want the case had Merkel not made the decision those refugees could have come in by force of numbers , pouring uncontrolled over borders, would this have been civil war, populations attacking them, massacres, starvation - who knows? What it wouldn't have been is some sort of orderly return home and turn away from Europe. Countries like Lebanon and Jordan with populations less than 1% of the SU had already taken more than the entire will number today so the fantasy Eu could have let it go away scenario didn't exist.

That's the point of Brexit. Total unrealistic scenarios , ignoring reality.

As I said before we need to stop ruining countries and creating the problems that cause these issues - even you would agree what a big part Britian has played in this and how Germany has done very little

I agree the UK along with the US were the architects of the problems in Iraq and Iran and the subsequent problems we're having to endure today. No arguement whatsoever about that and We have a massive responsibility to put it right, but opening the borders of Europe is not that solution. I can't speak for other countries in Europe but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that the UK simply does not have the infrastructure to take on board the predicted numbers, which, I bet, don't include for a share of the millions pouring into Europe right now.

So what is the answer? For me, and it's one of the few things I've ever agreed with Cameron about, it's about protecting and helping them in their own country. Don't ask me how because it would take a lot of people a lot cleverer than me, I can't speak for you, to work that one out. But coming yo Europe is just not physically possible. Surely you can acknowledge that?

All that said, none of it will affect the inpouring of EU citizens if we remain in.

 

[blueish swede]

Boris Johnson said he could build 400,000 homes in London without even touching the green belt.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Austerity has been imposed In Britain by Britain , no one has yet offered a good alternative to what Merkel did, I agree surely there was a better way but no one has come up with one. It could have been far worse and that is the issue. We shouldn't have created the crisis and thought we could leave tiny countries like Lebanon and Jordan to deal with millions

Austerity is going to have to come from everyone, most of the west is living beyond its means and is going to have to find ways to make paying tax acceptable and find ways of saving money. Hopefully not just attitude expense of the poor. Had the EU not bailed Greece the austerity could have meant collapse and just having nothing to spend

Fortunately we're not in the Euro so we did have freedom of action. But within the Eurozone it was the EU who decided on austerity. And all these expert economists who you tell us to listen to, told Osborne that austerity was wrong. It has damaged our growth prospects whereas a more balanced policy might have helped. Even the IMF told the EU it had completely over-done the austerity package it imposed on Greece and it should have been much less severe. The economic crisis that started in 2008 has, without a shadow of a doubt, been magnified and elongated by the straitjacket of the Euro and associated austerity. Everyone else was pretty well over it a few years ago.

 

[CitizenTID]

i've changed to IN for now as I have had the realisation that BREXIT is probably a worse scam. I wasn't sure because Cameron was clearly ignoring questions and answering his own on QT the other night. All it took was someone pointing out who is leading the BREXIT campaign: Farage, Boris etc. They're hardly working class looking out for the country, they are as privileged as it gets and part of the elite - obviously we'd have to have cut backs on leaving the EU for security's sake and to see out the uncertainty, but i fear BREXIT would result in privatisation of the NHS more so than staying in the EU - amongst other things.

The whole thing is controlled by the elite, BREXIT is a smoke screen. Maybe a split opinion of the elite this referendum (or one side vying for power), choose your poison.

 

[EalingBlue2]

The original 2008 crisis has been magnified by the fact that countries are tied into a common currency that (a) some should never have been in and (b) restricts their freedom of action to get out of. It's no coincidence that, however poor our economic performance may have been, it's been better than the vast majority of the EU apart from Germany. And plenty of countries that had freedom of action didn't have an economic crisis, including the one you live in.

The country I live in had banks that were crucified by the market for their conservatism and the Anti US/London banking rules we had. When Chinese construction came we dug up the iron and minerals so we were always going to do well.
Europe is on the way down has been for over a century , ageing wealthy populations the only way is down in or out.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

I don't fear an alignment with Farage though. I fear an alignment with the likes of Britain First and BNP.
Perhaps I'm narrow minded and should see a bigger picture as you say. However, I'm not likely or inclined to find common ground with people who have beliefs that I hate.

But Mac, either way you're in some form or another aligning yourself with people who you detest. If you vote to remain you're an ally of the people who seek to privatise the NHS, people who depress the standard of living of working people in this country to line their own pockets.

What's more, there is a broad spectrum of people who wish to leave the EU, and they're not all motivated by the same ambitions.

To allow a tiny minority of extremists among those supportive of a leave vote to deter you from voting leave is incredibly folly, IMO.

I just see a lot of people voting against their best interests and not trusting themselves and the electorate to get it right in the longterm following an out result, it depresses me frankly.

And as PB rightly pointed out, it's the EU itself which is fuelling the rise of the far right.

I just can't reconcile the fact that people believe emboldening the status quo is the best way to insure their futures, when it's precisely the status quo which is strangling them. As I said, depressing.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Latest you gov poll -

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 42% (-2)
Leave: 44% (+1)
(via YouGov, online / 17 - 19 Jun)

 

[worsleyweb]

Biggest problem I see in This country is stupid house prices. Puts people under pressure and delays age at which people can have kids. Very few English people can afford kids in their mid twenties. More people puts more pressure on the demand which causes a viscous circle. We should be looking more at quality of life rather than constant growth

 

[worsleyweb]

Latest you gov poll -

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 42% (-2)
Leave: 44% (+1)
(via YouGov, online / 17 - 19 Jun)

A lot of other polls suggesting remain well in lead

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

i've changed to IN for now as I have had the realisation that BREXIT is probably a worse scam. I wasn't sure because Cameron was clearly ignoring questions and answering his own on QT the other night. All it took was someone pointing out who is leading the BREXIT campaign: Farage, Boris etc. They're hardly working class looking out for the country, they are as privileged as it gets and part of the elite - obviously we'd have to have cut backs on leaving the EU for security's sake and to see out the uncertainty, but i fear BREXIT would result in privatisation of the NHS more so than staying in the EU - amongst other things.

The whole thing is controlled by the elite, BREXIT is a smoke screen. Maybe a split opinion of the elite this referendum (or one side vying for power), choose your poison.

I'm sorry, but thats a ridiculous decision to change your mind based on that. your aren't voting to leave because boris and farage are privileged. david cameron, osbourne, most remain politicians are toffs and part of the elite. near enough all politicians are. i think you were always going to vote remain.