Toni Kroos

[Dax777]

I think you're slightly missing the point on Kroos. He'll be playing as a Pivote / deep lying playmaker with two midfielders in front of him pressing the ball. It won't be his job to win tackles and put people under pressure. That's the job of the two guys in front of him. If that resistence is broken, the strategy will be for the whole team to drop back in to a defensive shape, each holding a position. It's likely teams are going to try and hit us early on the break as we'll be playing a high line.

This is a world removed from how Yaya was exposed defensively last season. He was exposed because we were constantly outnumbered in the middle of the park and our two man midfield got outnumbered and overran. I'm willing to bet any figure you like that not a single team is going to outnumber us in midfield next season. I can't recall a game in Guardiola's career where that has happened. Yet Pellegrini set us up that way for two full seasons.

Kroos' job won't be to win the ball back. It will be to take the ball off the defenders, dictate play, set the tempo from deep and hold his position.

Shael,

Take a look at the Pogba touches video. Ignore Pogba and pay close attention to Kroos. You'd see some disturbing attributes YOU used to complain about regarding Yaya. On multiple occasions, he shoesc no interest in joining in the defensive effort. Watch his actions when Griezmann scores. He just stands above the 18, watching proceedings lime a paying fan.

Not that it was his job to mark Griezmann. But there is Pogba with the ball at the corner inside his team's box and he leisurely just watches.

On 2 occasions you see Hector and Draxler run past him to go hell on defense, Kroos is barely jogging. On the Second it was Can and someone else. He often showed no interest in getting back into play once the ball got behind him.

These are worrying traits. Bit Domalino is trying to paper over it by saying he was playing 10, whatever that means. These are worrying characteristics regardless of where he plays.

Effort when your team is out of position should be none negotiable for everyone. Talk less a Central midfielder.

 

[Akiva]

Are people seriously questioning Kroos based on one Euros game? The guy with the highest number of passes and completion % in the tournament?

Kroos is world class, perhaps even the best at what he does. That's not just my opinion, that's Pep's too.

People need to stop pointing to the Euros and saying "see, told you he's not so good!" That applies for Pogba too.

 

[Dax777]

Are people seriously questioning Kroos based on one Euros game? The guy with the highest number of passes and completion % in the tournament?

Kroos is world class, perhaps even the best at what he does. That's not just my opinion, that's Pep's too.

People need to stop pointing to the Euros and saying "see, told you he's not so good!" That applies for Pogba too.

Like who for example?

 

[KCblue]

must have watched a different game.

Shots: Kroos 2, Pogba 2. Blocks: Kroos 1, Pogba 0. Clearances: Kroos 1, Pogba 2. Interceptions: Kroos 1, Pogba 1. Aerial Duels won: Kroos 2, Pogba 0. Tackles: Kroos 2/3, Pogba 0/3. Take-ons: Kroos 5/6, Pogba 3/3, Chances created: Kroos 2, Pogba 2, Passing: Kroos 84 pass (89% accuracy), Pogba 29 passes (82% accuracy).

Pogba didn't have a very good game IMO, and those numbers back it up. As you've shown, even regardless of the comparison Pogba had 2 shots, zero blocks, 2 clearances, 1 interception, zero aerial duels won, zero tackles, two chances created, and only 29 passes at 82% accuracy. World record bid type of player eh?

Yaya was a good player, Kroos is currently a good player

Exactly. Yaya COULD have fulfilled this role in Pep's team, but not at this point of his career. FWIW I think Kroos is a MUCH better passer of the ball. Even if you look at Yaya's passing statistics from last season let's remember how many short passes and backwards passes he made every game.

That's exactly what I mean about him dictating the possession and pace of our play, how many times did we see it last season where we had possession of the ball and we "slowed" the play down to nigh on walking pace through Yaya side to side, back, middle, side to side?

When Kroos gets the ball his first thought is forward, same as KDB, both Pep style players

See previous point. There is the big difference between Kroos and Yaya, and I think Sergio could score a fuckload of goals if he had De Bruyne, Kroos, Gundogan, Silva, and Nolito feeding him.

Now for the good bit:
Passes completed: Kroos 2277, Gundogan 1776, Fernandinho 1636, Yaya 1589, Pogba 1417.
Pass Completion %: Kroos 94, Gundogan 88, Fernandinho 87, Yaya 86, Pogba 83.
Dispossessed: Kroos 28, Gundogan 51, Fernandinho 59, Yaya 73 & Pogba 178.
Dribbles Completed %: Yaya 78, Kroos 76, Gundogan 69, Fernandinho 67 & Pogba 61.
Shots on Target %: Pogba 31, Yaya 30, Gundogan 28, Kroos 20, Fernandinho 17.
Aerial Duel Win %: Pogba 65, Gundogan 50, Fernandinho 49, Yaya 49 & Kroos 42.

So if Pogba could use the ball like Kroos & wasn't a greedy bastard, then yeah he'd definitely be here. As that's not the case, I think Kroos is more than adept. Kroos is the facilitator that feeds the rest of the team endlessly, incredible stats really. Pogba's a more flamboyant and ambitious box to box kind of player, but much more erratic and inconsistent and at neither end of the pitch is he the huge chasms ahead of Kroos some say he is. Yes he dribbles 100 more times but he also loses the ball 150 more times and completes over 800 fewer passes.

That could be our midfield next year. Unbelievable.

And JoeMercer'sWay said all you need to know on the comparisons on Pogba and Kroos. Pogba to the rags might appease them, but he would be far too dysfunctional in Pep's system whereas Kroos is literally the perfect midfielder for it. If we had Kroos, Gundogan, and Fernandinho our midfield would boss the fucking league. End of.

 

[yayas trusty right foot]

i think we could see a new Yaya this season if he wants it..

last season he was unfit and bored, if he loses weight and regains interest , he will be like a new signing..

the training videos over the next couple of weeks will reveal all.

 

[Phil1]

I really hope we don't buy Kroos.

I really hope you can tell us why.

 

[supercity88]

552 out of 557 is over 99%

522 sorry!

 

[johnmc]

522 sorry!

Carry on.

 

[Marvin]

Pogba didn't have a very good game IMO, and those numbers back it up. As you've shown, even regardless of the comparison Pogba had 2 shots, zero blocks, 2 clearances, 1 interception, zero aerial duels won, zero tackles, two chances created, and only 29 passes at 82% accuracy. World record bid type of player eh?



Exactly. Yaya COULD have fulfilled this role in Pep's team, but not at this point of his career. FWIW I think Kroos is a MUCH better passer of the ball. Even if you look at Yaya's passing statistics from last season let's remember how many short passes and backwards passes he made every game.



See previous point. There is the big difference between Kroos and Yaya, and I think Sergio could score a fuckload of goals if he had De Bruyne, Kroos, Gundogan, Silva, and Nolito feeding him.



That could be our midfield next year. Unbelievable.

And JoeMercer'sWay said all you need to know on the comparisons on Pogba and Kroos. Pogba to the rags might appease them, but he would be far too dysfunctional in Pep's system whereas Kroos is literally the perfect midfielder for it. If we had Kroos, Gundogan, and Fernandinho our midfield would boss the fucking league. End of.

I like your midfield of Kroos, Gundogan and Fernandinho, but where's Silva and KDB? I look at City's squad and I try and put it into a 11, and I have trouble with KDB and Silva.

 

[richards30]

Really hope we can get kroos! World class player and him and gundogan in our midfield with dinho would be up there with the best in the world!

 

[blueparrot]

Shael,

Take a look at the Pogba touches video. Ignore Pogba and pay close attention to Kroos. You'd see some disturbing attributes YOU used to complain about regarding Yaya. On multiple occasions, he shoesc no interest in joining in the defensive effort. Watch his actions when Griezmann scores. He just stands above the 18, watching proceedings lime a paying fan.

Not that it was his job to mark Griezmann. But there is Pogba with the ball at the corner inside his team's box and he leisurely just watches.

On 2 occasions you see Hector and Draxler run past him to go hell on defense, Kroos is barely jogging. On the Second it was Can and someone else. He often showed no interest in getting back into play once the ball got behind him.

These are worrying traits. Bit Domalino is trying to paper over it by saying he was playing 10, whatever that means. These are worrying characteristics regardless of where he plays.

Effort when your team is out of position should be none negotiable for everyone. Talk less a Central midfielder.

All that may or may not be true, but Pep knows Kroos and knows exactly what he is getting defensively. If he isn't worried by it neither am I.

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

Cant see Kroos coming, mainly as I midfield is rammed we really need another defender and forward and a keeper

 

[Neville Kneville]

Shael,

Take a look at the Pogba touches video. Ignore Pogba and pay close attention to Kroos. You'd see some disturbing attributes YOU used to complain about regarding Yaya. On multiple occasions, he shoesc no interest in joining in the defensive effort. Watch his actions when Griezmann scores. He just stands above the 18, watching proceedings lime a paying fan.

Not that it was his job to mark Griezmann. But there is Pogba with the ball at the corner inside his team's box and he leisurely just watches.

On 2 occasions you see Hector and Draxler run past him to go hell on defense, Kroos is barely jogging. On the Second it was Can and someone else. He often showed no interest in getting back into play once the ball got behind him.

These are worrying traits. Bit Domalino is trying to paper over it by saying he was playing 10, whatever that means. These are worrying characteristics regardless of where he plays.

Effort when your team is out of position should be none negotiable for everyone. Talk less a Central midfielder.

That's exactly how I see it & I'm wondering why he gets a free pass on it & Yaya gets crucified for the same (often with justification). And if that free pass will still be there if it's the rags scoring & he gets pulled up on tv for it afterwards, like Yaya.

 

[Neville Kneville]

All that may or may not be true, but Pep knows Kroos and knows exactly what he is getting defensively. If he isn't worried by it neither am I.

Assuming he is actually in for him.

None of his other teams have a Kroos type player in them & he says himself that such players need to be more athletic than he was, in the modern game.

 

[blueparrot]

Assuming he is actually in for him.

None of his other teams have a Kroos type player in them & he says himself that such players need to be more athletic than he was, in the modern game.

Very true, but he was a big admirer when at Bayern, though not in the pivot role some posters have him in. I still expect to see Stones at least tried as the pivot especially if we do sign Bonucci.

 

[Super David Silva 21]

Out of everyone this really needs to be done.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Very true, but he was a big admirer when at Bayern, though not in the pivot role some posters have him in. I still expect to see Stones at least tried as the pivot especially if we do sign Bonucci.

In the Prem, I would feel much happier with a more robust player than Kroos in that position. Especially in what is almost certain to be a very attacking team, with fullbacks going forward.

 

[domalino]

@domalino
I just went to examine the Kroos touches video again. Feel free to do the same. It's above.

In the first half alone on 25 of Kroos's started touches, Can was far ahead of him. On 4 touches, they were about even and on 3 touches Kroos was ahead of Can. On 1 of those 3 touches, Kroos overlapped Can. Thus if you only count starting positions when he initially got the ball started, only 2ice in the first 45 minutes did Kroos start a touch where he was physically ahead of Can.

But go ahead, show me the team sheet again. :) And explain how it's not a red herring.

Why did I have a feeling I'd wake up to more comments about this from you?

Just to finally settle this because of your apparent inability to read the heatmap. Here is the average positions map from the game

Which quite clearly shows number 18, Kroos, playing much further ahead of both Schweinsteiger (7) and Emre Can (14).

In fact he's almost as far forward as Ozil.


So to sum this up, we have:

1) The teamsheet submitted by Germany, showing Kroos as a 10.

2) The heatmap showing (to everyone except you) that Kroos was further forward.

3) The Average position map, showing that Kroos was further forward than the 2 central midfielders.


I'm not going to argue this any further because it's so bloody clear to see. Anyone who watched the game could see he was playing further forward than the other two.

 

[blueparrot]

In the Prem, I would feel much happier with a more robust player than Kroos in that position. Especially in what is almost certain to be a very attacking team, with fullbacks going forward.

Agree, from what I understand the pivot is expected to drop into the centre backs when the full backs are up the pitch and that's not Kroos, but it could be Stones.

 

[domalino]

Agree, from what I understand the pivot is expected to drop into the centre backs when the full backs are up the pitch and that's not Kroos, but it could be Stones.

During their one season at Bayern, Guardiola never played Kroos as the solo pivot. When Guardiola played a single pivot 4141/433 formation, Kroos was always one of the 2 attacking midfielders, otherwise he played next to Lahm in the 2 of a 4231.

I assume the same would be the case here.

He'd play something like

-------------------------striker

-Winger ------Kroos--------Gundogan------ Winger

---------- --------- Fernandinho


or

------------- Striker

-winger ------Silva--------winger

----Fernandinho--Kroos