“The work of God”?

[Ban-jani]

i get the difference but fact he doesn't introduce the most significant person to him/you/Christians
in his writings who only just died a few earlier is just strange to me, paul to me is talking in prophecies rather than about the bloke who has just had nails whacked in him
mate i think we'll just after agree to disagree
the fact that a man may or may not have existed is a world away from whether it is divine
now where do we start........

And that point is where faith comes in and I’m not trying to push the divinity on you.

Who am I to tell you that you should believe it? I can’t possibly do that, all I can do is tell you why I do and I already have.

Just a last word on Paul, he’s already set up a church in Corinth at this point and has been preaching the full life of Jesus to these people.

These letters have been sent because Paul has left the city and whilst he’s been gone, there are divisions.

It’d be like the Archbishop of Canterbury moving abroad now and there being mass infighting in the Church of England and him writing to calm it down.

 

[Ban-jani]

Well that should keep him quiet for a while..

Why are you so snide?

 

[urban genie]

Well that should keep him quiet for a while..

Oh ye of little faith ;-)


That from PC is just encouragement

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Another good read is around the theory that Jesus is actually a magic mushroom. As is Father Christmas.



Ever noticed how a lot of early pictures of Jesus show him with mushrooms?

The Mushroom in Christian Art by John A. Rush: 9781556439605 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books

In The Mushroom in Christian Art, author John A. Rush uses an artistic motif to define the nature of Christian art, establish the identity of Jesus, and expose the motive for his murder. Covering Christian...

www.penguinrandomhouse.com

Going further into the importance of psychedelic mushrooms and the opening of the mind, unlocking parts of the brain we don’t use day-to-day:



You can see why some believe that’s what may be being worshipped when it comes to deities. I don’t particularly subscribe to this theory, but it is interesting and holds as much weight for me as him being a miraculous son of the sky god.

That final book, not particularly looking at religion though, is brilliant!

 

[Ban-jani]

It’s not just Zeitgeist, which has many scientific inaccuracies in it. I believe in the gist of what Zeitgeist tried to look at, but it was done by amateurs who didn’t do enough reading and checking if their work before they released the film.

Even before the 1900s, the following authors had looked into this in the following books. Many finding the exact copies of the same gods and stories and historical events happening in other religions, in other parts of the world, even in the same parts of the world before Judaism and Christianity existed. Also many findings in historical events said to have happened in the Bible to be untrue:

Abbot (Lyman).	A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge, for Popular and Professional Use; comprising full information on Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Subjects. Edited by Rev. Lyman Abbott, assisted by Rev. T. J. Conant, D. D. New York: Harper & Bros., 1880.
Acosta (Rev. Joseph De).	The Natural and Moral History of the Indies, by Father Joseph De Acosta. Translated by Edward Grimston. London: 1604.
Æschylus.	The Poems of Æschylus. Translated by the Rev. R. Potter, M. A. New York: Harper & Bros., 1836.
Allen (Rev. D. O.).	India, Ancient and Modern, by David O. Allen, D. D., Missionary of the American Board for twenty-five years in India. London: Trübner & Co., 1856.
Amberly (Viscount).	An Analysis of Religious Belief, by Viscount Amberly, from the late London Edition. New York: D. M. Bennett, 1879.
Asiatic Researches.	Asiatic Researches, or Transactions of the Society instituted in Bengal, for inquiring in the History and Antiquities, the Arts, Sciences, and Literature of Asia. London: J. Swain, 1801.
Baring-Gould (Rev. S.).	Curious Myths of the Middle Ages, by Rev. S. Baring-Gould, M. A. Boston: Roberts Bros., 1880.
——.	Legends of the Patriarchs and Prophets, and other Old Testament Characters, from various sources, by Rev. S. Baring-Gould, M. A. New York: Holt & Williams, 1872.
——.	The Origin and Development of Religious Belief, by S. Baring-Gould, M. A., in 2 vols. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1870.
[Pg xii]Barnabas.	The General Epistle of Barnabas, a companion and fellow-preacher with Paul.
Barnes (Albert).	Notes, Explanatory and Practical, on the Gospels, by Rev. Albert Barnes, in 2 vols. New York: Harper & Bros., 1860.
Beal (Samuel).	The Romantic Legend of Sâkya Buddha, from the Chinese Sanscrit (being a translation of the Fo-pen-hing), by Samuel Beal. London: Trübner & Co., 1875.
Bell (J.).	Bell's New Pantheon, or Historical Dictionary of the Gods, Demi-Gods, Heroes, and Fabulous Personages of Antiquity; also of the Images and Idols, adored in the Pagan World, together with their Temples, Priests, Altars, Oracles, Fasts, Festivals, &c., in 2 vols. London: J. Bell, 1790.
Bhagavat-Geeta.	The Bhagavat-Geeta, or Dialogues of Crishna and Arjoon, in 18 Lectures, with notes. Translated from the original Sanscrit by Charles Wilkes. London: C. Nourse, 1785.
Blavatsky (H. P.).	Isis Unveiled: A Master Key to the Mysteries of Ancient and Modern Science and Theology, by H. P. Blavatsky,in 2 vols. New York: J. W. Bouton, 1877.
Bonwick (James).	Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought, by James Bonwick, F. R. G. S. London: C. Kegan Paul & Co., 1878.
Brinton (Daniel).	The Myths of the New World: A Treatise on the Symbolism and Mythology of the Red Race of America, by Daniel Brinton, A. M., M. D. New York: L. Holt & Co., 1868.
Britannica (Encyclo.).	The Encyclopædia Britannica, Ninth Edition.
Buckley (T. A.).	The Great Cities of the Ancient World, in their Glory and their Desolation, by Theodore A. Buckley, M. A. London: G. Routledge & Co., 1852.
Bulfinch (Thomas).	The Age of Fable, or Beauties of Mythology, by Thomas Bulfinch. Boston: J. E. Tilton & Co., 1870.
Bunce (John T.).	Fairy Tales: Their Origin and Meaning, with some account of Dwellers in Fairy-land, by John Thackary Bunce. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1878.
Bunsen (Ernest de).	The Keys of St. Peter, or the House of Rochab, connected with the History of Symbolism and Idolatry, by Ernest de Bunsen. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1867.
——.	The Angel-Messiah of Buddhists, Essenes, and Christians, by Ernest de Bunsen. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1880.
——.	The Chronology of the Bible, connected with contemporaneous events in the history of Babylonians, Assyrians, and Egyptians, by Ernest de Bunsen. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1874.
[Pg xiii]Calmet.	Calmet's Dictionary of the Holy Bible (Taylor's). London: 1798.
Chadwick (J. W.).	The Bible of To-day: A Course of Lectures by John W. Chadwick, Minister of the Second Unitarian Church in Brooklyn, N. Y. New York: G. P. Putnam & Sons, 1878.
Chambers.	Chambers' Encyclopædia: A Dictionary of Universal Knowledge for the People. American Revised Edition. Philadelphia: J. Lippincott & Co., 1877.
Champollion (M.).	Précis du système Hiéroglyphique des Anciens Égyptiens ou recherches sur les élémens premiers dec ette ecriture sacrée, &c., par M. Champollion Le Jeune. Seconde Edit. Paris: 1828.
Child (L. M.).	The Progress of Religious Ideas through Successive Ages, by L. Maria Child, in 3 vols. New York: C. S. Francis & Co., 1855.
Clement.	The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians.
Colenso (Rev. J. W.).	The Pentateuch and Book of Joshua critically examined, by the Right Rev. John William Colenso, D. D., Bishop of Natal. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1863.
——.	Lectures on the Pentateuch and Moabite Stone, by the Right Rev. John William Colenso, D. D., Bishop of Natal. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1873.
Constantine (The Emperor).	The Emperor Constantine's Oration to the Holy Congregation of the Clergy. London: Thos. Coates, 1637.
Conway (M. D.).	The Sacred Anthology: A Book of Ethnical Scriptures, collated and edited by Moncure D. Conway. London: Trübner & Co., 1874.
Cory.	Cory's Ancient Fragments of the Phenician, Carthagenian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and other Authors. A new and enlarged edition, carefully revised by E. Richard Hodges, M. C. P. London: Reeves & Turner, 1876.
Coulanges (F. de).	The Ancient City: A Study on the Religion, Laws, and Institutions of Greece and Rome, by Fustel de Coulanges. Translated from the latest French Edition by Williard Small. Boston: Lee & Shepherd, 1874.
Cox (Rev. G. W.).	The Myths of the Aryan Nations, by George W. Cox, M. A., late Scholar of Trinity, Oxford, in 2 vols. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1870.
——.	Tales of Ancient Greece, by Rev. George W. Cox, M. A., Bart. London: C. Kegan Paul & Co., 1880.
Darwin (Charles).	Journal of Researches into the Natural History and Geology of the Countries visited during the Voyage of H. M. S. Beagle Round the World, by Charles Darwin, M. A., F. R. S. 2d Edit. London: John Murray, 1845.
——.	The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex, by [Pg xiv]Charles Darwin, M. A. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1876.
Davies (Edward).	The Myths and Rites of the British Druids compared with Customs and Traditions of Heathen Nations, by Edward Davies, Rector of Brampton. London: J. Booth, 1809.
Davis (J. F.).	The Chinese: A General Description of the Empire of China and its Inhabitants, by John Francis Davis, Esq. F. R. S., in 2 vols. New York: Harper Bros., 1836.
Delitch (F.).	See Keil (C. F.).
Dillaway (C. K.).	Roman Antiquities and Ancient Mythology, by Charles K. Dillaway. Boston: Gould, Kendall & Lincoln, 1840.
Draper (J. W.).	History of the Conflict between Religion and Science, by John W. Draper, M. D. 8th Edit. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1876.
Dunlap (S. F.).	Vestiges of the Spirit History of Man, by S. F. Dunlap, Member of the American Oriental Soc., New Haven. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1858.
——.	The Mysteries of Adoni, by S. F. Dunlap London: Williams & Northgate, 1861.
——.	Sōd, the Son of the Man, by S. F. Dunlap. London: Williams & Northgate, 1861.
Dupuis.	The Origin of all Religious Worship, translated from the French of Mons. Dupuis. New Orleans: 1872.
Eusebius.	The Life of Constantine, in Four Books, by Eusebius Pamphilius, Bishop of Cesarea. London: Thomas Coates, 1637.
——.	The Ancient Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilius, Bishop of Cesarea in Palestine, in Ten Books. London: George Miller, 1636.
Farrar (F. W.).	The Life of Christ, by Frederick W. Farrar, D. D., F. R. S., late Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge. Albany: Rufus Wendell, 1876.
Fergusson (James).	Tree and Serpent Worship, or Illustrations of Mythology and Art in India, by James Fergusson. London: 1868.
Fiske (John).	Myths and Myth-Makers; Old Tales and Superstitions Interpreted by Comparative Mythology, by John Fiske, M. A., LL. B., Harvard University. Boston: J. R. Osgood & Co., 1877.
Frothingham (O. B.).	The Cradle of the Christ: A Study in Primitive Christianity, by Octavius Brooks Frothingham. New York: G. P. Putnam & Sons, 1877.
Gaugooly (J. C.).	Life and Religion of the Hindoos, by Joguth Chunder Gaugooly. Boston: Crosby, Nichols & Co., 1860.
Geikie (C.)	The Life and Words of Christ, by Cunningham Geikie, D. D., in 2 vols. New York: D. Appleton & Co, 1880.
[Pg xv]Gerbet (L'Abbé).	The Lily of Israel, or the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God. From the French of the Abbé Gerbet New York: P. J. Kennedy, 1878.
Gibbon (Edward).	The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Esq., in 6 vols. Philadelphia: Claxton, Remsen & Hoffelfinger, 1876.
Giles.	Hebrew and Christian Records: An Historical Enquiry concerning the Age and Authorship of the Old and New Testaments, by the Rev. Dr. Giles, in 2 vols. London: Trübner & Co., 1877.
Ginsburgh (C. D.)	The Essenes: Their History and Doctrines; an Essay, by Charles D. Ginsburgh. London: Longman, Green, Roberts & Green, 1864.
Goldzhier (I.).	Mythology among the Hebrews, and its Historical Development, by Ignaz Goldzhier, Ph. D., Member of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. Translated from the German by Russel Martineau. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1877.
Gori.	Etrurische Alterthümer. Mürnburg: G. Lichtensleger, 1770.
Greg (W. R.).	The Creed of Christendom: Its Foundations contrasted with its Superstructure, by William Rathbone Greg. Detroit: Rose-Belford Pub. Co., 1878.
Gross (J. B.).	The Heathen Religion in its Popular and Symbolical Development, by Rev. Joseph B. Gross. Boston; J. P. Jewett & Co., 1856.
Gutzlaff.	The Journal of Two Voyages along the Coast of China (in 1831-2), and Remarks on the Policy, Religion, &c., of China, by the Rev. Mr. Gutzlaff. New York: John P. Haven, 1833.
Hardy (R. S.).	The Legends and Theories of the Buddhists compared with History and Science, with Introductory Notices of the Life of Gautama Buddha, by R. Spence Hardy, Hon. M. R. A. S. London: Williams & Northgate, 1866.
——.	Eastern Monachism: An Account of the Origin, Laws, Discipline, &c., of the Order of Mendicants founded by Gautama Buddha, by R. Spence Hardy. London: Williams & Northgate, 1860.
——.	A Manual of Buddhism in its Modern Development.Translated from the Singalese MSS. by R. S. Hardy. London: Williams & Northgate, 1860.
Hermas.	The First Book of Hermas, Brother of Pius, Bishop of Rome, which is called his Vision.
Herodotus.	The History of Herodotus, the Greek Historian: A New and Literal Version, from the Text of Baehr, by Henry Cary, M. A. New York: Harper & Bros., 1871.
[Pg xvi]Higgins (Godfrey).	The Celtic Druids, by Godfrey Higgins, Esq., F. R. A. S. London: Hunter & Co., 1827.
——.	Anacalypsis: An Enquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations, and Religions, by Godfrey Higgins, Esq., F. R. S., F. R. A. S., in 2 vols. London: Longman, Rees,Orne, Brown & Longman.
Hooykaas (I.).	See Oort (H.).
Huc (L'Abbé).	Christianity in China, Tartary and Thibet, by M. L'Abbé Huc, formerly Missionary Apostolic in China, in 2 vols. London: Longman, Brown & Co., 1857.
Humboldt (A. de).	Researches concerning the Institutions and Monuments of the Ancient Inhabitants of Mexico, by Alexander de Humboldt, in 2 vols. (Translated by Helen Maria Williams.) London: Longman, Rees & Co., 1814.
——.	Political Essay on the Kingdom of New Spain, by Alexander de Humboldt, in 2 vols. (Translated by John Black.) London: Longman, Hurst & Co., 1822.
Hume (David).	Essays and Treaties on Various Subjects, by David Hume (author of Hume's History of England). Boston: From the London Edit. J. P. Mendum.
Huxley (T. H.).	Evidence as to Man's Place in Nature, by Thomas H. Huxley, F. R. S., F. L. S. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1873.
Ignatius.	The Epistle of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch in Syria, to the Ephesians.
——.	The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians.
——.	The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians.
——.	The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians.
Infancy (Apoc.).	The Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ (Apocryphal).
Inman (Thomas).	Ancient Pagan and Modern Christian Symbolism Exposed and Explained, by Thomas Inman, M. D., Physician to the Royal Infirmary, &c. London: 1869.
——.	Ancient Faiths Embodied in Ancient Names, or An Attempt to Trace the Religious Belief, Sacred Rites, and Holy Emblems of certain Nations, by Thomas Inman, M. D. London: Trübner & Co., 1872.
——.	Ancient Faiths and Modern: A Dissertation upon Worship, Legends, and Divinities in Central and Western Asia, Europe, and Elsewhere, before the Christian Era, by Thomas Inman, M. D. London: Trübner & Co. 1876.
Jameson.	The History of Our Lord as Exemplified in Works of Art; commenced by the late Mrs. Jameson, continued and completed by Lady Eastlake, in 2 vols. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1864.
Jennings (H.).	The Rosicrucians: Their Rites and Mysteries. Second [Pg xvii]Edit. revised by Hargrave Jennings. London: Catto & Windus, 1879.
Johnson (Samuel).	Oriental Religions, and their Relation to Universal Religion (India), by Samuel Johnson. Boston: J. R. Osgood, 1872.
Josephus (Flavius).	Antiquities of the Jews, in Twenty Books, by Flavius Josephus, the learned and authentic Jewish Historian and celebrated Warrior. Translated by William Whiston, A. M. Baltimore: Armstrong & Berry, 1839.
——.	The Wars of the Jews, or the History of the Destruction of Jerusalem, in Seven Books, by Flavius Josephus. Baltimore: 1839.
——.	Flavius Josephus Against Apion, in Two Books. Baltimore: 1839.
Keightley (T.).	The Mythology of Ancient Greece and Italy, by Thomas Keightley. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1843.
Keil (C. F.).	Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament, by C. F. Keil, D. D., and F. Delitch, D. D., Professors in Theology, in 3 vols. Translated from the German by Rev. James Martin, B. A. Edinboro': T. & T. Clarke, 1872.
Kenrick (J.).	Ancient Egypt under the Pharaohs, by John Kenrick, M. A., in 2 vols. London: B. Fellows, 1850.
King (C. W.).	The Gnostics and their Remains, Ancient and Mediæval, by C. W. King, M. A., Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge. London: Bell & Dudley, 1864.
Kingsborough (Lord).	Antiquities of Mexico, comprising Fac-similes of Ancient Mexican Paintings and Hieroglyphics, preserved in the Royal Libraries of Paris, Berlin, and Dresden, in the Imperial Library of Vienna, &c., &c., together with the Monuments of New Spain, by Lord Kingsborough, in 7 vols. London: Robert Havill & Coyglen, Son & Co., 1831.
Knappert (J.).	The Religion of Israel, a Manual: Translated from the Dutch of J. Knappert, pastor at Leiden, by Richard A. Armstrong, B. A. Boston: Roberts Bros., 1878.
Knight (R. P.).	The Symbolical Language of Ancient Art and Mythology. An Enquiry, by Richard Payne Knight, author of "The Worship of Priapus," &c. A new Edit. with Introduction, Notes and Additions, by Alexander Wilder, M. D. New York: J. W. Bouton, 1876.
Koran.	The Koran, commonly called the Al Coran of Mohammed; translated into English immediately from the original Arabic, by Geo. Sale, Gent.
Kunen (A.).	See Oort (H.).
Lardner (N.).	The Works of Nathaniel Lardner, D. D., with a Life, by Dr. Kipps, in 10 vols. London: Wm. Ball. 1838.
[Pg xviii]Leland (Chas. G.).	Fusang: or the Discovery of America by Buddhist Priests in the 5th Century, by Chas. C. Leland. London: Trübner & Co., 1875.
Lillie (Arthur).	Buddha and Early Buddhism, by Arthur Lillie. London:Trübner & Co., 1881.
Lubbock (John).	Pre-historic Times, as Illustrated by Ancient Remains, and the Manners and Customs of Modern Savages, by Sir John Lubbock, F. R. S. London: Williams & Northgate, 1865.
Lundy (J. P.).	Monumental Christianity, or the Art and Symbolism of the Primitive Church as Witness and Teachers of the One Catholic Faith and Practice, by John P. Lundy, Presbyter. New York: J. W. Bouton, 1876.
Mahaffy (J. P.).	Prolegomena to Ancient History, by John P. Mahaffy, A. M., M. R. I. A., Fellow and Tutor in Trinity College, and Lecturer in Ancient History in the University of Dublin. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1871.
Mallet.	Northern Antiquities; or an Historical Account of the Manners, Customs, Religion and Laws of the Ancient Scandinavians, by M. Mallet. Translated from the French by Bishop Percy. London: H. S. Bohn, 1847.
Marsh (Herbert).	A Course of Lectures, containing a Description and Systematic Arrangement of the several Branches of Divinity by Herbert Marsh, D. D. Cambridge: W. Hillard, 1812.
Mary (Apoc.).	The Gospel of the Birth of Mary, attributed to St. Matthew. Translated from the Works of St. Jerome.
Maurice (Thomas).	Indian Antiquities: or Dissertations on the Geographical Division, Theology, Laws, Government and Literature of Hindostan, compared with those of Persia, Egypt and Greece, by Thomas Maurice, in 6 vols. London: W. Richardson, 1794.
——.	The History of Hindostan; Its Arts and its Sciences, as connected with the History of the other Great Empires of Asia, during the most Ancient Periods of the World, in 2 vols., by Thomas Maurice. London: Printed by H. L. Galabin, 1798.
Maurice (F. D.).	The Religions of the World, and Their Relation to Christianity, by Frederick Denison Maurice, M. A., Professor of Divinity in Kings' College. London: J. W. Parker, 1847.
Middleton (C.).	The Miscellaneous Works of Conyers Middleton, D. D., Principal Librarian of the University of Cambridge, in 4 vols. ("Free Enquiry" vol. I., "Letters from Rome" vol. III.). London: Richard Manby, 1752.
Montfaucon (B.).	L'Antiquité Expliqueé; par Dom Bernard de Montfaucon. Second edit. Paris: 1722.
[Pg xix]Moor (Edward).	Plates illustrating the Hindoo Pantheon, reprinted from the work of Major Edward Moor, F. R. S., edited by Rev. Allen Moor, M. A. London: Williams & Norgate, 1816.
Morton (S. G.).	Types of Mankind: or Ethnological Researches based upon the Ancient Monuments, Paintings, Sculptures, and Crania of Races, by Samuel George Morton, M. D. Philadelphia: Lippincott, Grambo & Co., 1854.
Müller (Max).	A History of Ancient Sanscrit Literature, so far as it illustrates the Primitive Religion of the Brahmins, by Max Müller, M. A. London: Williams & Norgate, 1860.
——.	Introduction to the Science of Religion; Four Lectures delivered at the Royal Institution, with Two Essays on False Analogies, and the Philosophy of Mythology, by (F.) Max Müller, M. A. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1873.
——.	Chips from a German Workshop; by Max Müller, M. A., in 3 vols. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1876.
——.	Lectures on the Origin and Growth of Religion, as Illustrated by the Religious of India. Delivered in the Chapel House, Westminster Abbey, by (F.) Max Müller, M. A. London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1878.
Murray (A. S.).	Manual of Mythology, by Alexander S. Murray, Department of Greek and Roman Antiquities, British Museum, 2d Edit. New York: Armstrong & Co., 1876.
Nicodemus (Apoc.).	The Gospel of Nicodemus the Disciple, concerning the Sufferings and Resurrection of Our Master and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Oort (H.).	The Bible for Learners, by Dr. H. Oort, Prof. of Oriental Languages, &c., at Amsterdam, and Dr. I. Hooykaas, pastor at Rotterdam, with the assistance of Dr. A. Kunen, Prof. of Theology at Leiden, in 3 vols. Translated from the Dutch by Philip A. Wicksteed, M. A. Boston: Roberts Bros., 1878.
Orton (James).	The Andes and the Amazon; or Across the Continent of South America, by James Orton, M. A., 3d Edit. New York: Harper & Bros., 1876.
Owen (Richard).	Man's Earliest History, an Address delivered before the International Congress of Orientalists, by Prof. Richard Owen. Tribune Extra, No. 23. New York Tribune Pub. Co., 1874.
Peschel (Oscar).	The Races of Man, and their Geographical Distribution from the German of Oscar Peschel. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1876.
[Pg xx]Polycarp.	The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, translated by Archbishop Wake.
Porter (Sir R. K.).	Travels in Georgia, Persia, Armenia, Ancient Babylonia, &c., by Sir Robert Kir Porter, in 2 vols. London: Longmans, Hurst, Rees, Orm & Brown, 1821.
Prescott (Wm. H.).	History of the Conquest of Mexico, with a preliminary view of the Ancient Mexican Civilization, and the life of the conqueror, Hernando Cortez, by Wm. H. Prescott, in 3 vols. Philadelphia: J. P. Lippincott & Co., 1873.
Prichard (J. C.).	An Analysis of the Historical Records of Ancient Egypt, by J. C. Prichard, M. D., F. R. S. London: Sherwood, Gilbert & Piper, 1838.
——.	An Analysis of Egyptian Mythology, and the Philosophy of the Ancient Egyptians, compared with those of the Indians and others, by J. C. Prichard, M. D., F. R. S. London: Sherwood, Gilbert & Piper, 1838.
Priestley (Joseph).	A Comparison of the Institutions of Moses with those of the Hindoos and other Ancient Nations, by Joseph Priestley, LL. D., F. R. S. Northumberland: A. Kennedy, 1799.
Protevangelion Apoc.	The Protevangelion, or, An Historical Account of the Birth of Christ, and the perpetual Virgin Mary, His Mother, by James the Lesser, Cousin and Brother to the Lord Jesus.
Reber (Geo.).	The Christ of Paul, or the Enigmas of Christianity, by Geo. Reber. New York: C. P. Somerby, 1876.
Renan (Ernest).	Lectures on the Influence of the Institutions, Thought and Culture of Rome on Christianity, and the Development of the Catholic Church, by Ernest Renan, of the French Academy. Translated by Charles Beard, B. A. London: Williams & Norgate, 1880.
Renouf (P. Le Page).	Lectures on the Origin and Growth of Religion as Illustrated by the Religion of Ancient Egypt, by P. Le Page Renouf. London: Williams & Norgate, 1880.
Reville (Albert).	History of the Dogma of the Deity of Jesus Christ, by Albert Reville. London: Williams & Norgate, 1870.
Rhys-Davids (T. W.)	Buddhism: Being a Sketch of the Life and Teachings of Gautama, the Buddha, by T. W. Rhys-Davids, of the Middle Temple, Barrister-at-Law, and late of the Ceylon Civil Service. London: Soc. for Promoting Christian Knowledge.
Scott (Thomas).	The English Life of Jesus, by Thomas Scott. Published by the Author. London: 1872.
Septchenes (M. Le Clerc de).	The Religion of the Ancient Greeks, Illustrated by an Explanation of their Mythology. Translated from the French of M. Le Clerc de Septchenes. London: 1788.
[Pg xxi]Sharpe (Samuel).	Egyptian Mythology and Egyptian Christianity, with their Influence on the Opinions of Modern Christendom, by Samuel Sharpe. London: J. R. Smith, 1863.
Shih-king (The).	The Shih-King, or Book of Poetry. Translated from the Chinese by James Legge. London: Macmillan & Co., 1879.
Shobeil (F.).	Persia; containing a description of the Country, with an account of its Government, Laws, and Religion, by Frederick Shobeil. Philadelphia: John Grigg, 1828.
Smith.	Smith's Comprehensive Dictionary of the Bible, with many important Additions and Improvements. Edited by Rev. Samuel Barnum. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1879.
Smith (George).	Assyrian Discoveries: An account of Explorations and Discoveries on the Site of Nineveh during 1873 and 1874, by George Smith, of the Department of Oriental Antiquity, British Museum. Now York: Scribner, Armstrong & Co., 1875.
——.	The Chaldean Account of Genesis, containing the description of the Creation, the Fall of Man, the Deluge, the Tower of Babel, the Times of the Patriarchs and Nimrod; Babylonian Fables, and Legends of the Gods, from the Cuneiform Inscriptions, by George Smith, of the British Museum. New York: Scribner, Armstrong & Co., 1876.
Socrates.	The Ancient Ecclesiastical History of Socrates Scholasticus, of Constantinople, in Seven Books. Translated out of the Greek Tongue by Meredith Hanmer, D. D. London: George Miller, 1636.
Spencer (Herbert).	The Principles of Sociology, by Herbert Spencer, in 2 vols. New York; D. Appleton & Co., 1877.
Squire (E. G.).	The Serpent Symbol, and the Worship of the Reciprocal Principles of Nature in America, by E. G. Squire, A. M. New York: George P. Putnam, 1861.
Stanley (A. P.).	Lectures on the History of the Jewish Church, by Arthur P. Stanley, D. D., Dean of Westminster. New York: Charles Scribner, 1863.
——.	In a Sermon preached in Westminster Abbey on February 28th, 1880, after the funeral of Sir Charles Lyell, entitled: "The Religious Aspect of Geology."
Steinthal (H.).	The Legend of Samson: An Essay, by H. Steinthal, Professor of the University of Berlin. Appendix to Goldzhier's Hebrew Mythology.
Synchronology.	Synchronology of the Principal Events in Sacred and Profane History from the Creation to the Present Time. Boston: S. Hawes, 1870.
[Pg xxii]Tacitus (C.).	The Annals of Cornelius Tacitus, the Roman Historian. Translated by Arthur Murphy, Esq. London: Jones & Co., 1831.
——.	The History of Cornelius Tacitus. Translated by Arthur Murphy. London: Jones & Co., 1831.
——.	Treatise on the Situation, Manners, and People of Germany, by Cornelius Tacitus. Translated by Arthur Murphy. London: Jones & Co., 1831.
Taylor (Charles).	Taylor's Fragments: Being Illustrations of the Manners, Incidents, and Phraseology of the Holy Scriptures. Intended as an Appendix to Calmet's Dictionary of the Bible. London: W. Stratford, 1801.
Taylor (Robert).	The Diegesis: Being a Discovery of the Origin, Evidences, and Early History of Christianity, by Rev. Robert Taylor, A. B. (From the London Edit.) Boston: J. P. Mendum, 1873.
——.	Syntagma of the evidences of the Christian Religion, by Rev. Robert Taylor, A. B., with a brief Memoir of the Author. (From the London Edit.) Boston: J. P. Mendum, 1876.
Taylor (Thomas).	Taylor's Mysteries; A Dissertation on the Eleusinian and Bacchic Mysteries, by Thomas Taylor. Amsterdam.
Thornton (Thomas).	A History of China, from the Earliest Records to the Treaty with Great Britain in 1842, by Thomas Thornton, Esq., Member of the R. A. S. London: William H. Allen & Co., 1844.
Tylor (E. B.).	Researches Into the Early History of Mankind, and the Development of Civilization, by Edward B. Tylor. 2d Edit. London: John Murray, 1870.
——.	Primitive Culture; Researches into the Development of Mythology, Philosophy, Religion, &c., by Edward B. Tylor, in 2 vols. London: John Murray, 1871.
Vishnu Purana.	The Vishnu Purana, A System of Hindoo Mythology and Tradition, Translated from the Original Sanscrit, by H. H. Wilson, M. A., F. R. S. London: 1840.
Volney (C. F.).	New Researches in Ancient History, Translated from the French of C. F. Volney, Count and Peer of France. (From the London Edit.) Boston: J. P. Mendum, 1874.
——.	The Ruins; or, Meditations on the Revolutions of Empires, by Count de Volney, Translated under the immediate inspection of the Author. (From the latest Paris Edit.) Boston: J. P. Mendum, 1872.
Wake (C. S.).	See Westropp.
Westropp (H. M.).	Ancient Symbol Worship. Influence of the Phallic Ideas in the Religions of Antiquity, by Hodder M. Westropp [Pg xxiii]and C. S. Wake, with Appendix by Alexander Wilder, M. D. London: Trübner & Co., 1874.
Williams (Monier).	Indian Wisdom; or Examples of the Religious, Philosophical, and Ethnical Doctrines of the Hindoos, by Monier Williams, M. A., Prof. of Sanscrit in the University of Oxford. London: W. H. Allen, 1875.
——.	Hinduism; by Monier Williams, M. A., D. C. L., Published under the Direction of the Committee of General Literature and Education Appointed by the Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge. London: 1877.
Wisdom (Apoc.).	The Book of Wisdom, Attributed to Solomon, King of Israel.
Wise (Isaac M.).	The Martyrdom of Jesus of Nazareth. A Historic Treatise on the Last Chapters of the Gospel, by Dr Isaac M. Wise. Cincinnati.

The further you delve into all this, the further you go back, the less believable the Abrahmic religions are. The furthest back you can go, the more you see places like Stonehenge and Stones of Stennes, even Gobeckli Tepe, thousands and thousands of years ago, they are all lined up to the Sun’s movement. It’s no coincidence.

Copying and pasting a list of books without detail on what they even concluded and merely saying they “looked at it” is designed so I can’t possibly reply, it doesn’t even give a specific point for me to come back on.

Ive no idea what is in those books or what they concluded.

Is there a key point in there you think is the most damning evidence to fit your claim?

The majority of scholars, even atheist ones, are maximalist in terms of the story, and nearly every historian thinks Jesus existed as a preacher and was crucified.

I doubt he went to his death trying to mimic the sun but I’m open to hearing theories.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Copying and pasting a list of books without detail on what they even concluded and merely saying they “looked at it” is designed so I can’t possibly reply, it doesn’t even give a specific point for me to come back on.

Ive no idea what is in those books or what they concluded.

Is there a key point in there you think is the most damning evidence to fit your claim?

The majority of scholars, even atheist ones, are maximalist in terms of the story, and nearly every historian thinks Jesus existed as a preacher and was crucified.

I doubt he went to his death trying to mimic the sun but I’m open to hearing theories.

You tried to make out my belief was taken from Zeitgiest when I never even mentioned Zeitgesit, just to make my belief seem less valid. My list was adding greater validity that it wasn’t just some bedroom internet guy from America where my belief comes from.

Key points from those texts are outlined in some of my previous posts in this thread, for example;
Immaculate conceptions and celestial descents were so currently received among the ancients, that whoever had greatly distinguished himself in the affairs of men was thought to be of supernatural lineage. Gods descended from heaven and were made incarnate in men, and men ascended from earth, and took their seat among the gods, so that these incarnations and apotheosises were fast filling Olympus with divinities.

In our inquiries on this subject we shall turn first to Asia, where, as the learned Thomas Maurice remarks in his Indian Antiquities, "in every age, and in almost every region of the Asiatic world, there seems uniformly to have flourished an immemorial tradition that one god had, from all eternity, begotten another god."[112:2]

In India, there have been several Avatars, or incarnations of Vishnu,[112:3] the most important of which is Heri Crishna,[112:4] or Crishna the Saviour.

[Pg 113]

In the Maha-bharata, an Indian epic poem, written about the sixth century B. C., Crishna is associated or identified with Vishnu the Preserving god or Saviour.[113:1]

Sir William Jones, first President of the Royal Asiatic Society, instituted in Bengal, says of him:

"Crishna continues to this hour the darling god of the Indian woman. The sect of Hindoos who adore him with enthusiastic, and almost exclusive devotion, have broached a doctrine, which they maintain with eagerness, and which seems general in these provinces, that he was distinct from all the Avatars (incarnations) who had only an ansa, or a portion, of his (Vishnu's) divinity, while Crishna was the person of Vishnu himself in human form."[113:2]
The Rev. D. O. Allen, Missionary of the American Board, for twenty-five years in India, speaking of Crishna, says:

"He was greater than, and distinct from, all the Avatars which had only a portion of the divinity in them, while he was the very person of Vishnu himself in human form."[113:3]
Thomas Maurice, in speaking of Mathura, says:

"It is particularly celebrated for having been the birth-place of Crishna, who is esteemed in India, not so much an incarnation of the divine Vishnu, as the deity himself in human form."[113:4]
Again, in his "History of Hindostan," he says:

"It appears to me that the Hindoos, idolizing some eminent character of antiquity, distinguished, in the early annals of their nation, by heroic fortitude and exalted piety, have applied to that character those ancient traditional accounts of an incarnate God, or, as they not improperly term it, an Avatar, which had been delivered down to them from their ancestors, the virtuous Noachidæ, to descend amidst the darkness and ignorance of succeeding ages, at once to reform and instruct mankind. We have the more solid reason to affirm this of the Avatar of Crishna, because it is allowed to be the most illustrious of them all; since we have learned, that, in the seven preceding Avatars, the deity brought only an ansa, or portion of his divinity; but, in the eighth, he descended in all the plentitude of the Godhead, and was Vishnu himself in a human form."[113:5]
Crishna was born of a chaste virgin,[113:6] called Devaki, who, on account of her purity, was selected to become the "mother of God."

According to the "BHAGAVAT POORAUN," Vishnu said:

"I will become incarnate at Mathura in the house of Yadu, and will issue [Pg 114]forth to mortal birth from the womb of Devaki. . . . It is time I should display my power, and relieve the oppressed earth from its load."[114:1]
Then a chorus of angels exclaimed:

"In the delivery of this favored woman, all nature shall have cause to exult."[114:2]
In the sacred book of the Hindoos, called "Vishnu Purana," we read as follows:

"Eulogized by the gods, Devaki bore in her womb the lotus-eyed deity, the protector of the world. . . .
"No person could bear to gaze upon Devaki, from the light that invested her, and those who contemplated her radiance felt their minds disturbed. The gods, invisible to mortals, celebrated her praises continually from the time that Vishnu was contained in her person."[114:3]
Again we read:

"The divine Vishnu himself, the root of the vast universal tree, inscrutable by the understandings of all gods, demons, sages, and men, past, present, or to come, adored by Brahma and all the deities, he who is without beginning, middle, or end, being moved to relieve the earth of her load, descended into the womb of Devaki, and was born as her son, Vasudeva," i. e., Crishna.[114:4]
Again:

"Crishna is the very Supreme Brahma, though it be amystery[114:5] how the Supreme should assume the form of a man."[114:6]
The Hindoo belief in a divine incarnation has at least, above many others, its logical side of conceiving that God manifests himself on earth whenever the weakness or the errors of humanity render his presence necessary. We find this idea expressed in one of their sacred books called the "Bhágavat Geeta," wherein it says:

"I (the Supreme One said), I am made evident by my own power, and as often as there is a decline of virtue, and an insurrection of vice and injustice in the world, I make myself evident, and thus I appear from age to age, for the preservation of the just, the destruction of the wicked, and the establishment of virtue."[114:7]
Crishna is recorded in the "Bhágavat Geeta" as saying to his beloved disciple Arjouna:

[Pg 115]

"He, O Arjoun, who, from conviction, acknowledgeth my divine birth (upon quitting his mortal form), entereth into me."[115:1]
Again, he says:

"The foolish, being unacquainted with my supreme and divine nature, as Lord of all things, despise me in this human form, trusting to the evil, diabolic, and deceitful principle within them. They are of vain hope, of vain endeavors, of vain wisdom, and void of reason; whilst men of great minds, trusting to their divine natures, discover that I am before all things and incorruptible, and serve me with their hearts undiverted by other gods."[115:2]
The next in importance among the God-begotten and Virgin-born Saviours of India, is Buddha[115:3] who was born of the Virgin Maya or Mary. He in mercy left Paradise, and came down to earth because he was filled with compassion for the sins and miseries of mankind. He sought to lead them into better paths, and took their sufferings upon himself, that he might expiate their crimes, and mitigate the punishment they must otherwise inevitably undergo.[115:4]

According to the Fo-pen-hing,[115:5] when Buddha was about to descend from heaven, to be born into the world, the angels in heaven, calling to the inhabitants of the earth, said:

"Ye mortals! adorn your earth! for Bôdhisatwa, the great Mahâsatwa, not long hence shall descend from Tusita to be born amongst you! make ready and prepare! Buddha is about to descend and be born!"[115:6]
The womb that bears a Buddha is like a casket in which a relic is placed; no other being can be conceived in the same receptacle; the usual secretions are not formed; and from the time of conception, Maha-maya was free from passion, and lived in the strictest continence.[115:7]

The resemblance between this legend and the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary the mother of Jesus, cannot but be remarked. The opinion that she had ever borne other children was called heresy by Epiphanius and Jerome, long before she had been exalted to the station of supremacy she now occupies.[115:8]

[Pg 116]

M. l'Abbé Huc, a French Missionary, in speaking of Buddha, says:

"In the eyes of the Buddhists, this personage is sometimes a man and sometimes a god, or rather both one and the other, a divine incarnation, a man-god; who came into the world to enlighten men, to redeem them, and to indicate to them the way of safety.
"This idea of redemption by a divine incarnation is so general and popular among the Buddhists, that during our travels in Upper Asia, we everywhere found it expressed in a neat formula. If we addressed to a Mongol or a Thibetan the question, 'Who is Buddha?' he would immediately reply: 'The Saviour of Men.'"[116:1]
He further says:

"The miraculous birth of Buddha, his life and instructions, contain a great number of the moral and dogmatic truths professed in Christianity."[116:2]
This Angel-Messiah was regarded as the divinely chosen and incarnate messenger, the vicar of God. He is addressed as "God of Gods," "Father of the World," "Almighty and All-knowing Ruler," and "Redeemer of All."[116:3]He is called also "The Holy One," "The Author of Happiness," "The Lord," "The Possessor of All," "He who is Omnipotent and Everlastingly to be Contemplated," "The Supreme Being, the Eternal One," "The Divinity worthy to be Adored by the most praiseworthy of Mankind."[116:4] He is addressed by Amora—one of his followers—thus:

"Reverence be unto thee in the form of Buddha! Reverence be unto thee, the Lord of the Earth! Reverence be unto thee, an incarnation of the Deity! Of the Eternal One! Reverence be unto thee, O God, in the form of the God of Mercy; the dispeller of pain and trouble, the Lord of all things, the deity, the guardian of the universe, the emblem of mercy."[116:5]
The incarnation of Gautama Buddha is recorded to have been brought about by the descent of the divine power called The "Holy Ghost" upon the Virgin Maya.[116:6] This Holy Ghost, or [Pg 117]Spirit, descended in the form of a white elephant. The Tikas explain this as indicating power and wisdom.[117:1]

The incarnation of the angel destined to become Buddha took place in a spiritual manner. The Elephant is the symbol of power and wisdom; and Buddha was considered the organ of divine power and wisdom, as he is called in the Tikas. For these reasons Buddha is described by Buddhistic legends as having descended from heaven in the form of an Elephant to the place where the Virgin Maya was. But according to Chinese Buddhistic writings, it was the Holy Ghost, or Shing-Shin, who descended on the Virgin Maya.[117:2]


So who do I follow? Chrishna Buddha or Jesus? They can’t all be true, because only one of them is the one true incarnation of god on Earth. But they’re all the same story all with the same message, maybe I’ll believe the earliest one? But then up on reading earlier religions, I find there are others before these three, so who do I follow? Let’s delve deeper, if they all seem to be actually personifying the Sun, let’s look even further back - yes, all the first evidence for religions point to Sun worship. When you trace the line, the long long long long line, from Jesus to Gobeckli Tepe, they’re all the same thing. Worship of the Sun.

 

[tonea2003]

And that point is where faith comes in and I’m not trying to push the divinity on you.

Who am I to tell you that you should believe it? I can’t possibly do that, all I can do is tell you why I do and I already have.

Just a last word on Paul, he’s already set up a church in Corinth at this point and has been preaching the full life of Jesus to these people.

These letters have been sent because Paul has left the city and whilst he’s been gone, there are divisions.

It’d be like the Archbishop of Canterbury moving abroad now and there being mass infighting in the Church of England and him writing to calm it down.

we differ obviously as blind faith is a unacceptable position for me to put oneself in(you wouldn't do it in any other form of life)
you have no material evidence apart from one book which is pretty much horrendous from start to finish(i'll grant you there is the occasional good stuff)
i have no idea why you do apart from some process that happened over a period of time, literally means nothing to me as to why you think there is a deity.
i don't care if you believe or not that is your private choice, but i do if you want to come on public forum and say it is fact. the floor is yours if you want to convince me otherwise
we'll leave paul mate we've now been there and done it

 

[Ban-jani]

You tried to make out my belief was taken from Zeitgiest when I never even mentioned Zeitgesit, just to make my belief seem less valid. My list was adding greater validity to my belief that it wasn’t just some bedroom internet guy from America where my belief comes from.

Well that’s fair enough mate and I apologise if I seemed to patronise it, it’s just that view was prominent in the film and the film of zeitgeist was roundly mocked.

My take on it being celestial and about the sun is this, I think you could very much argue the case and to a significant degree too, if there wasn’t the historical man and the whole thing is myth, however there’s more than enough evidence for the historical figure who died via crucifixion, that even scholars who’s life work was to disprove Jesus, have now settled on the fact the story was likely true but the divinity part isn’t.

Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and was killed for it is universally accepted and he knowingly made these claims knowing he’d die.

I don’t think he’d have done that to fulfil a pagan story about a sun God.

 

[Ban-jani]

we differ obviously as blind faith is a unacceptable position for me to put oneself in(you wouldn't do it in any other form of life)
you have no material evidence apart from one book which is pretty much horrendous from start to finish(i'll grant you there is the occasional good stuff)
i have no idea why you do apart from some process that happened over a period of time, literally means nothing to me as to why you think there is a deity.
i don't care if you believe or not that is your private choice, but i do if you want to come on public forum and say it is fact. the floor is yours if you want to convince me otherwise
we'll leave paul mate we've now been there and done it

I am not here to convince you, I actually get annoyed with pushy types who preach the Gospel at people in an attempt to convert them, it’s never going to work.

I am merely here to at least give the scriptures their deserved dues, and to add context where some posters have attacked them. That may prompt a silent reader to give it more thought and maybe not write it off so quickly, I don’t know if that will happen of course but I also enjoy talking about it, as debating atheists tests my faith and I think it’s healthy to do so.

On the book, as a New Testament guy, a Christian, I see it as a counter cultural immense force for good. I view the Old Testament as containing some terrible things but it was for that specific time for a specific set of people being treated horrendously, I see Jesus as coming to fulfil it but also explaining how the law should be applied, which moves away from brutality and moves the religion to being a world one.

The Bible isn’t really one book, it’s many put together, as you know.

Anyway, I have no quarrel with atheists, most of my family and friends are, I am very aware talking about Jesus these days in football circles, including this forum, invites ridicule, but I do enjoy talking about the merits of the books involved.

What I can’t stand though, is the snide comments from one or two that don’t want to debate and just want to shut others up. I don’t want to do that, I appreciate atheists have a solid argument and why people doubt the story, I’ve doubted it many times myself.

 

[KS55]

You tried to make out my belief was taken from Zeitgiest when I never even mentioned Zeitgesit, just to make my belief seem less valid. My list was adding greater validity that it wasn’t just some bedroom internet guy from America where my belief comes from.

Key points from those texts are outlined in some of my previous posts in this thread, for example;
Immaculate conceptions and celestial descents were so currently received among the ancients, that whoever had greatly distinguished himself in the affairs of men was thought to be of supernatural lineage. Gods descended from heaven and were made incarnate in men, and men ascended from earth, and took their seat among the gods, so that these incarnations and apotheosises were fast filling Olympus with divinities.

In our inquiries on this subject we shall turn first to Asia, where, as the learned Thomas Maurice remarks in his Indian Antiquities, "in every age, and in almost every region of the Asiatic world, there seems uniformly to have flourished an immemorial tradition that one god had, from all eternity, begotten another god."[112:2]

In India, there have been several Avatars, or incarnations of Vishnu,[112:3] the most important of which is Heri Crishna,[112:4] or Crishna the Saviour.

[Pg 113]

In the Maha-bharata, an Indian epic poem, written about the sixth century B. C., Crishna is associated or identified with Vishnu the Preserving god or Saviour.[113:1]

Sir William Jones, first President of the Royal Asiatic Society, instituted in Bengal, says of him:

"Crishna continues to this hour the darling god of the Indian woman. The sect of Hindoos who adore him with enthusiastic, and almost exclusive devotion, have broached a doctrine, which they maintain with eagerness, and which seems general in these provinces, that he was distinct from all the Avatars (incarnations) who had only an ansa, or a portion, of his (Vishnu's) divinity, while Crishna was the person of Vishnu himself in human form."[113:2]
The Rev. D. O. Allen, Missionary of the American Board, for twenty-five years in India, speaking of Crishna, says:

"He was greater than, and distinct from, all the Avatars which had only a portion of the divinity in them, while he was the very person of Vishnu himself in human form."[113:3]
Thomas Maurice, in speaking of Mathura, says:

"It is particularly celebrated for having been the birth-place of Crishna, who is esteemed in India, not so much an incarnation of the divine Vishnu, as the deity himself in human form."[113:4]
Again, in his "History of Hindostan," he says:

"It appears to me that the Hindoos, idolizing some eminent character of antiquity, distinguished, in the early annals of their nation, by heroic fortitude and exalted piety, have applied to that character those ancient traditional accounts of an incarnate God, or, as they not improperly term it, an Avatar, which had been delivered down to them from their ancestors, the virtuous Noachidæ, to descend amidst the darkness and ignorance of succeeding ages, at once to reform and instruct mankind. We have the more solid reason to affirm this of the Avatar of Crishna, because it is allowed to be the most illustrious of them all; since we have learned, that, in the seven preceding Avatars, the deity brought only an ansa, or portion of his divinity; but, in the eighth, he descended in all the plentitude of the Godhead, and was Vishnu himself in a human form."[113:5]
Crishna was born of a chaste virgin,[113:6] called Devaki, who, on account of her purity, was selected to become the "mother of God."

According to the "BHAGAVAT POORAUN," Vishnu said:

"I will become incarnate at Mathura in the house of Yadu, and will issue [Pg 114]forth to mortal birth from the womb of Devaki. . . . It is time I should display my power, and relieve the oppressed earth from its load."[114:1]
Then a chorus of angels exclaimed:

"In the delivery of this favored woman, all nature shall have cause to exult."[114:2]
In the sacred book of the Hindoos, called "Vishnu Purana," we read as follows:

"Eulogized by the gods, Devaki bore in her womb the lotus-eyed deity, the protector of the world. . . .
"No person could bear to gaze upon Devaki, from the light that invested her, and those who contemplated her radiance felt their minds disturbed. The gods, invisible to mortals, celebrated her praises continually from the time that Vishnu was contained in her person."[114:3]
Again we read:

"The divine Vishnu himself, the root of the vast universal tree, inscrutable by the understandings of all gods, demons, sages, and men, past, present, or to come, adored by Brahma and all the deities, he who is without beginning, middle, or end, being moved to relieve the earth of her load, descended into the womb of Devaki, and was born as her son, Vasudeva," i. e., Crishna.[114:4]
Again:

"Crishna is the very Supreme Brahma, though it be amystery[114:5] how the Supreme should assume the form of a man."[114:6]
The Hindoo belief in a divine incarnation has at least, above many others, its logical side of conceiving that God manifests himself on earth whenever the weakness or the errors of humanity render his presence necessary. We find this idea expressed in one of their sacred books called the "Bhágavat Geeta," wherein it says:

"I (the Supreme One said), I am made evident by my own power, and as often as there is a decline of virtue, and an insurrection of vice and injustice in the world, I make myself evident, and thus I appear from age to age, for the preservation of the just, the destruction of the wicked, and the establishment of virtue."[114:7]
Crishna is recorded in the "Bhágavat Geeta" as saying to his beloved disciple Arjouna:

[Pg 115]

"He, O Arjoun, who, from conviction, acknowledgeth my divine birth (upon quitting his mortal form), entereth into me."[115:1]
Again, he says:

"The foolish, being unacquainted with my supreme and divine nature, as Lord of all things, despise me in this human form, trusting to the evil, diabolic, and deceitful principle within them. They are of vain hope, of vain endeavors, of vain wisdom, and void of reason; whilst men of great minds, trusting to their divine natures, discover that I am before all things and incorruptible, and serve me with their hearts undiverted by other gods."[115:2]
The next in importance among the God-begotten and Virgin-born Saviours of India, is Buddha[115:3] who was born of the Virgin Maya or Mary. He in mercy left Paradise, and came down to earth because he was filled with compassion for the sins and miseries of mankind. He sought to lead them into better paths, and took their sufferings upon himself, that he might expiate their crimes, and mitigate the punishment they must otherwise inevitably undergo.[115:4]

According to the Fo-pen-hing,[115:5] when Buddha was about to descend from heaven, to be born into the world, the angels in heaven, calling to the inhabitants of the earth, said:

"Ye mortals! adorn your earth! for Bôdhisatwa, the great Mahâsatwa, not long hence shall descend from Tusita to be born amongst you! make ready and prepare! Buddha is about to descend and be born!"[115:6]
The womb that bears a Buddha is like a casket in which a relic is placed; no other being can be conceived in the same receptacle; the usual secretions are not formed; and from the time of conception, Maha-maya was free from passion, and lived in the strictest continence.[115:7]

The resemblance between this legend and the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary the mother of Jesus, cannot but be remarked. The opinion that she had ever borne other children was called heresy by Epiphanius and Jerome, long before she had been exalted to the station of supremacy she now occupies.[115:8]

[Pg 116]

M. l'Abbé Huc, a French Missionary, in speaking of Buddha, says:

"In the eyes of the Buddhists, this personage is sometimes a man and sometimes a god, or rather both one and the other, a divine incarnation, a man-god; who came into the world to enlighten men, to redeem them, and to indicate to them the way of safety.
"This idea of redemption by a divine incarnation is so general and popular among the Buddhists, that during our travels in Upper Asia, we everywhere found it expressed in a neat formula. If we addressed to a Mongol or a Thibetan the question, 'Who is Buddha?' he would immediately reply: 'The Saviour of Men.'"[116:1]
He further says:

"The miraculous birth of Buddha, his life and instructions, contain a great number of the moral and dogmatic truths professed in Christianity."[116:2]
This Angel-Messiah was regarded as the divinely chosen and incarnate messenger, the vicar of God. He is addressed as "God of Gods," "Father of the World," "Almighty and All-knowing Ruler," and "Redeemer of All."[116:3]He is called also "The Holy One," "The Author of Happiness," "The Lord," "The Possessor of All," "He who is Omnipotent and Everlastingly to be Contemplated," "The Supreme Being, the Eternal One," "The Divinity worthy to be Adored by the most praiseworthy of Mankind."[116:4] He is addressed by Amora—one of his followers—thus:

"Reverence be unto thee in the form of Buddha! Reverence be unto thee, the Lord of the Earth! Reverence be unto thee, an incarnation of the Deity! Of the Eternal One! Reverence be unto thee, O God, in the form of the God of Mercy; the dispeller of pain and trouble, the Lord of all things, the deity, the guardian of the universe, the emblem of mercy."[116:5]
The incarnation of Gautama Buddha is recorded to have been brought about by the descent of the divine power called The "Holy Ghost" upon the Virgin Maya.[116:6] This Holy Ghost, or [Pg 117]Spirit, descended in the form of a white elephant. The Tikas explain this as indicating power and wisdom.[117:1]

The incarnation of the angel destined to become Buddha took place in a spiritual manner. The Elephant is the symbol of power and wisdom; and Buddha was considered the organ of divine power and wisdom, as he is called in the Tikas. For these reasons Buddha is described by Buddhistic legends as having descended from heaven in the form of an Elephant to the place where the Virgin Maya was. But according to Chinese Buddhistic writings, it was the Holy Ghost, or Shing-Shin, who descended on the Virgin Maya.[117:2]


So who do I follow? Chrishna Buddha or Jesus? They can’t all be true, because only one of them is the one true incarnation of god on Earth. But they’re all the same story all with the same message, maybe I’ll believe the earliest one? But then up on reading earlier religions, I find there are others before these three, so who do I follow? Let’s delve deeper, if they all seem to be actually personifying the Sun, let’s look even further back - yes, all the first evidence for religions point to Sun worship. When you trace the line, the long long long long line, from Jesus to Gobeckli Tepe, they’re all the same thing. Worship of the Sun.

An erudite post, if ever there was one. Chapeau.