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Agree with most of that and there have been plenty of examples through history of autocratic leaders using the grievances of those in society with the least intelligence looking for someone to blame for their plight. It's the same playbook as Mao's Cultural Revolution, Stalin's great purge, Hitler's rise to power and many others where propaganda is used to gain the support of those that feel downtrodden.

Each time a scapegoat is used to rally support from the masses, and the scapegoat is usually what the leader perceives as his biggest threat such as the intelligentsia in Russia and China for Stalin and Mao, or minority groups perceived to be either doing well or limiting their own opportunities such as Jews in Germany, immigrants in general etc. Trump's scapegoats have been a combination of the above such as Mexicans, Muslims, Chinese and the Deep State which has pandered to his base's xenophobia and openness to conspiracy theories.

Like you say there are parallels with Farage here but also in places like Poland, Hungary, Brazil etc where authoritarian figures have managed to become mainstream through tapping into the grievances of those at the bottom of society.

It's a potential problem everywhere but the likelihood of success for the autocrat is in places where there are the most divisions in society, where the gulf between the haves and have nots is the widest and where grievances are not taken seriously and are allowed to fester.

I don't think it's as simple as college-educated = wisest choice.

The Nazi movement was mainly rooted in the middle class which back then was a byword for 'educated' and was backed by many intellectuals, most infamously Martin Heidegger. The working class vote went to the communists.

Even in the UK, Corbynism was a middle-class enterprise supported by intellectuals. The working class, non-university educated vote went to the Tories.

I don't know the breakdown for other movements but I'm sure there'll be plenty of occasions where the intelligentsia have got it wrong so I don't think we should sneer at the non-college educated too much.
 
Thinking about things earlier, seeing one group of pro-Trump supporters demanding counting be stopped in Michigan and another demanding it carry on in Arizona. I simply couldn't imagine either of the Bush's, Reagan or even the notoriously paranoid Nixon encouraging their supporters to carry on like this. It's little short of outright incitement in my opinion.

It also perfectly illustrates what I said yesterday about being able to subvert or override the supposed checks and balances that the Constitution is supposed to provide.

I do wonder how many of the Republican voters are Trump fans rather than true Republicans. If the GOP had someone similar to Biden (somewhat bland career politician) running against Biden it'd be interesting to see what the voting split in the various demographics would look like as I reckon the appeal of Trump may be a significant issue.

I was also reading something about how the various demographics prefer information. College-educated people tend to prefer objective arguments, with nuanced views, which is what you'd expect with them having been through college. Whereas the blue-collar, less-educated demographic like to here more extreme, zero-sum conflict arguments. These people have always existed but I suspect been in the margins.

Trump emboldened and unleashed this group and made them mainstream, in the same way that someone like Farage did for the little-Englander, or Corbyn did for the anti-semites in the Labour Party. The question is will the GOP carry on with Trumpism without Trump or will it repudiate it and go back to being a standard political party?

Trumpism, Farageism, Cummingsism, and populist us v them distilling of complex issues to polar binaries, based on who they appear to let you see yourself as, rather than how you see the issue, that is going nowhere anytime in the forseeble. Worldwide. Rhetoric and personality driven politics are more and more prominent. Always existed to an extent, but any balance to that either in reason or apathy has now been shrunk to lomg distant secondary in comparison.
 
Why is getting Trump out good for America?

His trade wars were fucking the economy before coronavirus. His tax-cut for the rich increased the national debt by 50% in under 4 years. He wanted to kill medicare for all during a pandemic. He refused to pass an economic package to help people during the pandemic, but gave 2 trillion to big business.

He killed a few hundred thousand by lying about the virus, he made the country best prepared for a pandemic suffer the worst from it. He refused to use a prepared pandemic playbook because Obama implemented it. He gave out PPE and emergency equipment based on states being republican/democrat. He gave billions of dollars worth of contracts for PPE to his donors who never delivered working PPE.

He appointed 200 partisan judges, some of whom were deemed unfit for the office, he stoked the racial tensions in the country at every opportunity, he banned muslims from entering the country, he stripped protections for immigrant children. He forcibly deported 60,000 haitians who were being allowed to live and work in the US while Haiti rebuilds from the earthquake.

He asked a foreign country to interfere in the election. He caused the biggest government lockdown in history. He made a well known white supremacist his head strategist. He assassinated Iran's #2 general in a foreign country without notifying anyone.

He destroyed whistleblower protections, he had his people illegally spread the name of the whistleblower who came forward against him and then sought out a personal vendetta that spread to even firing Lt Vindman's brother from the army.

He took the US out of the paris climate accord, approved oil pipelines through protected land, he stripped protections from the national forests, he gutted the EPA and replaced qualified, experienced people with donors and oil/gas lobbyists. He made a climate change denier the head of the white house committee on climate change, he made an anti-abortion lobbyist the head of the family planning program in poor areas.

And then there's all the day to day little stuff - the racism, the sexism, the general degrading of the office, the destroying of the everyday norms that make things work - like following a court order or subpoena, instead of forcing every single one into the courts for 6 months.

So that's the stuff "anyone but trump" won't do.

And so it's great for Americans and it's great for us because the American economy, their attitude to the environment and their politics in general all effects us. Look how BLM spread to this country or how Steve Bannon and Cambridge analytica brought their election meddling to Britain. Think about how we negotiate a trade deal with someone who thinks he has to be the out and out, unbeatable winner of every deal he makes.


 
Grover Cleveland, both the 22nd and 24th president

should have been the 23rd as well, he won the popular vote and lost in the electoral college

Thanks.

Are we making the assumption Trump will be able to run as he will not be brought to justice?
 
Thinking about things earlier, seeing one group of pro-Trump supporters demanding counting be stopped in Michigan and another demanding it carry on in Arizona. I simply couldn't imagine either of the Bush's, Reagan or even the notoriously paranoid Nixon encouraging their supporters to carry on like this. It's little short of outright incitement in my opinion.

It also perfectly illustrates what I said yesterday about being able to subvert or override the supposed checks and balances that the Constitution is supposed to provide.

I do wonder how many of the Republican voters are Trump fans rather than true Republicans. If the GOP had someone similar to Biden (somewhat bland career politician) running against Biden it'd be interesting to see what the voting split in the various demographics would look like as I reckon the appeal of Trump may be a significant issue.

I was also reading something about how the various demographics prefer information. College-educated people tend to prefer objective arguments, with nuanced views, which is what you'd expect with them having been through college. Whereas the blue-collar, less-educated demographic like to here more extreme, zero-sum conflict arguments. These people have always existed but I suspect been in the margins.

Trump emboldened and unleashed this group and made them mainstream, in the same way that someone like Farage did for the little-Englander, or Corbyn did for the anti-semites in the Labour Party. The question is will the GOP carry on with Trumpism without Trump or will it repudiate it and go back to being a standard political party?
Trump is utterly malign and is not only directly causing this anger and discord, but getting off on it. How anyone cannot see this is utterly beyond me.
 
Rearding the future, I'm afraid Trump isn't going anywhere soon. He will run for 2024, not least because being a rival presidential candidate makes it very difficult for a Biden regime to prosecute him for his various crimes, he will cry about political persecution etc.
He almost certainly won't have the cognitive acuity to run in 2024.
 
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Agree with most of that and there have been plenty of examples through history of autocratic leaders using the grievances of those in society with the least intelligence looking for someone to blame for their plight. It's the same playbook as Mao's Cultural Revolution, Stalin's great purge, Hitler's rise to power and many others where propaganda is used to gain the support of those that feel downtrodden.

Each time a scapegoat is used to rally support from the masses, and the scapegoat is usually what the leader perceives as his biggest threat such as the intelligentsia in Russia and China for Stalin and Mao, or minority groups perceived to be either doing well or limiting their own opportunities such as Jews in Germany, immigrants in general etc. Trump's scapegoats have been a combination of the above such as Mexicans, Muslims, Chinese and the Deep State which has pandered to his base's xenophobia and openness to conspiracy theories.

Like you say there are parallels with Farage here but also in places like Poland, Hungary, Brazil etc where authoritarian figures have managed to become mainstream through tapping into the grievances of those at the bottom of society.

It's a potential problem everywhere but the likelihood of success for the autocrat is in places where there are the most divisions in society, where the gulf between the haves and have nots is the widest and where grievances are not taken seriously and are allowed to fester.

The thing that Trump Farage and Cummings have managed to add to that scapegoat category, which has massively added numbers is 'the elite' or 'liberals' or whichever catch term was used to describe simply anyone that disagreed with whatever aspect of the rhetoric anyone chose to identify with. Which makes decisions and voting all the more entrenched purely on inertia and revolt.
And the conttinued failure of those challenging it to recognise it is only going to ensure it stays.
 
Thinking about things earlier, seeing one group of pro-Trump supporters demanding counting be stopped in Michigan and another demanding it carry on in Arizona. I simply couldn't imagine either of the Bush's, Reagan or even the notoriously paranoid Nixon encouraging their supporters to carry on like this. It's little short of outright incitement in my opinion.

It also perfectly illustrates what I said yesterday about being able to subvert or override the supposed checks and balances that the Constitution is supposed to provide.

I do wonder how many of the Republican voters are Trump fans rather than true Republicans. If the GOP had someone similar to Biden (somewhat bland career politician) running against Biden it'd be interesting to see what the voting split in the various demographics would look like as I reckon the appeal of Trump may be a significant issue.

I was also reading something about how the various demographics prefer information. College-educated people tend to prefer objective arguments, with nuanced views, which is what you'd expect with them having been through college. Whereas the blue-collar, less-educated demographic like to here more extreme, zero-sum conflict arguments. These people have always existed but I suspect been in the margins.

Trump emboldened and unleashed this group and made them mainstream, in the same way that someone like Farage did for the little-Englander, or Corbyn did for the anti-semites in the Labour Party. The question is will the GOP carry on with Trumpism without Trump or will it repudiate it and go back to being a standard political party?

These topics have been raised and discussed extensively over the past few years in the Trump thread, with many of us calling out the ferocious undermining of American political institutions and norms, whilst also warning of the likely subversion strategy for this election. To date, his regime has undertaken nearly everything many of us predicted it would. Very little it has done (and likely will do over the coming weeks) comes as a surprise to anyone that has been paying attention throughout Trump’s term.

As far as how the Republican Party will go on after this, that in part depends on the Trump camp’s next moves — there will be ramifications if they take attempts to subvert the election even further. That is a distinct possibility, as down to a man nearly all will be desperate to remain in power to avoid prosecution and to continue grifting. In Trump’s case, his businesses will likely collapse when he leaves office and he is already under a mountain of litigation without the federal indictments that are impossible to levy while he is President. And that is not even considering new charges that will likely be brought against him arising from investigations that can’t even begin in earnest until he is ousted. He is desperate to remain in office, generally shielded from those dire consequences. Even if he does finally concede defeat peaceably, he won’t just vanish afterward. He will be prominently lingering, with rapid cognitive decline and manic desperation for attention, holding national secrets, as one of the highest security risks ever seen in modern American history.

And since the Republican Party has largely been consumed by Trumpers — people that were apolitical or nominally Republican until Trump came along and gave them a deified vessel for their until then increasingly maligned beliefs and aspirations — his political power in the party does not evaporate, either. In many ways it has become a cult of personality not that dissimilar to dictatorships seen throughout history (especially more recently). Except, perhaps different in that he has the zealous backing of a worldwide conspiracy cult in QAnon, further strengthening his reach and influence even out of office. There have been quite a few surveys over the last year or so that have shown that a large portion of those self-identifying as Republican count loyalty to Trump as a chief tenet of their political identity. To many of his followers he is their political identity. A large portion of the Republican membership will be solely loyal to Trump, not the party, and especially not the platform. Though, the platform itself has quite obviously been hijacked, as well. Trump will be an incredibly influential agitator, with the means to insight literal insurrection, even if he goes to prison (which most of us hope will happen). His (crime) family is also another variable in the equation. Their fortunes are largely tied to his, meaning they will probably stick together, barring any betrayals to save themselves arising from the aforementioned tonnage of litigation they are and will be facing. And they will act “on his behalf”, whether or not he is actually giving them instructions, as they will need to ride his coattails as far as they go.

There is also the matter of the actions the Trump regime take as a lame duck admin — any chaos over the next few months will have implications for the future of the party (not to mention America and the world, of course).

I cannot see any scenario where the Republican Party can simply disentangle from Trump and revert to a standard political party. There were opportunities early on, when the tumor was fairly small and isolated, to cleave the cancer and potentially save the body. But it has metastasised now, with malignant tentacles in nearly every fold and crevice. Removing the growth would likely kill the body.

I can only see a splintering to form a new political party, with many of the previous conservative beliefs (and a few new ones) constituting the core of the new platform.

At any rate, as things stand, we’ll soon find out how it will go on.
 
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