Streeting was on gmb this morning and admitted it was part of his religion that he was voting against it , why should 400 ish people who are shit scared to vote it through have power over the rest of us, it is not rightAsking a bunch of barely literate people who don’t understand the complexities of it sounds like a solid idea.
MPs represent their constituents and if they sense their constituents want it they will vote for it. Email your local MP, maybe refrain from calling him/her a twat ;)
I do think it needs longer to be debated however - let’s have an honest and open discussion about it. Led by experts and the MPs can then an informed decision. Without time you feel an MP will likely opt to maintain the status quo if they lack information.
My Dad was hooked up to allsorts for 2 weeks before he died.That’s a really interesting question. My dad had a DNR in place when he was admitted to hospital for the last time. The ward staff / doctors were trying to actively treat which was distressing him. Mrs MB explained it wasn’t his wishes (which they validated) and they stopped active treatment and he was allowed to die peacefully.
So if we take your example of someone having overdosed if they are able to explain they don’t want active treatment to save their life I expect it would likely be an intrusion, if they aren’t able to articulate their wishes at that exact moment then medical staff would say they are acting in a patients best interests and saving their life. By the time we get to the conversation about DNRs it’s likely they would have already performed the life saving interventions. It’s definitely a very interesting dilemma you’ve posed.
Fucking religion.Streeting was on gmb this morning and admitted it was part of his religion that he was voting against it , why should 400 ish people who are shit scared to vote it through have power over the rest of us, it is not right
The amount of people being cared for and dying at home need a voice , they are not getting the pallative care you get in a hospice
Not sure if this thread has discussed whether the hospital care itself decides if a patient lives or dies.
I remember many years ago with my mum in hospital the consultant told me that if my mum had a heart attack they simply would not resuscitate her.
I argued unsuccessfully that was a fully paid up member of the NHS so deserved full coverage. He said it was hospital policy with older people in my mums condition.
She recovered and left hospital.
She died with a stroke some months later.
My point is that life or death in hospitals appears to be decided by hospitals already without consulting the patient so why this worry about a patient that wants to die?
This is true, with Hospice care considered a luxury for some.The amount of people being cared for and dying at home need a voice , they are not getting the pallative care you get in a hospice
Very true TThis is true, with Hospice care considered a luxury for some.
Its all down to the finances. Money talks.
Streeting's "religion" is donations from American Health firms.Streeting was on gmb this morning and admitted it was part of his religion that he was voting against it , why should 400 ish people who are shit scared to vote it through have power over the rest of us, it is not right
The amount of people being cared for and dying at home need a voice , they are not getting the pallative care you get in a hospice
They aren’t deadThanks for reply.
Does leaving people to die who have say taken an overdose fall into the same category? In fact is trying to save their life an intrusion using your logic?
I agree with terminally ill people who are never getting better and are in constant pain having the opportunity to die with dignity on their own terms. As most people do I feel.
I just hope this isn't a slippery slope to a Canadian like system where you get stories like this. https://care.org.uk/news/2023/08/ca...-assisted-suicide-after-lack-of-hospital-beds
That is absolutely abhorrent. People with depression don't need to be offered suicide at a price instead of help.
Agreed, one wants to die but has their decision overturned, the other cannot choose to live so is allowed to die.They aren’t dead
If people are suffering long-term social isolation and severe depression (which many are nowadays) ideally they'd be helped , but they're not being helped, aside from tablets and if they're lucky , local mental health groups.
I really believe that modern life is so stressful , mentally demanding and frankly cruel that it's actually a fate worse than death for some and I don't know why those who are suffering should be expected to tolerate it.
We have hundreds dying on railway lines every year and it's an absolute tragedy for everybody concerned.
I believe that the always available option of voluntary-assisted euthanasia would perhaps make life easier - knowing that they wouldn't have to choose a violent method of exit that may not be successful and may leave them with terrible injuries.
I don't expect this to ever be allowed here cos I strongly suspect that many more than they might expect would try to exit.. And it would just look awful.
I personally am struggling and it might end with electro convulsive therapy.
I keep on going even though things are almost always bleak as fcuk.
As I'm autistic the world is a semi- nightmare anyway, mentally.
I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
If people are suffering long-term social isolation and severe depression (which many are nowadays) ideally they'd be helped , but they're not being helped, aside from tablets and if they're lucky , local mental health groups.
I really believe that modern life is so stressful , mentally demanding and frankly cruel that it's actually a fate worse than death for some and I don't know why those who are suffering should be expected to tolerate it.
We have hundreds dying on railway lines every year and it's an absolute tragedy for everybody concerned.
I believe that the always available option of voluntary-assisted euthanasia would perhaps make life easier - knowing that they wouldn't have to choose a violent method of exit that may not be successful and may leave them with terrible injuries.
I don't expect this to ever be allowed here cos I strongly suspect that many more than they might expect would try to exit.. And it would just look awful.
I personally am struggling and it might end with electro convulsive therapy.
I keep on going even though things are almost always bleak as fcuk.
As I'm autistic the world is a semi- nightmare anyway, mentally.
I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
This 'treatment' utopia you think should exist doesn't. In the last ten years my wife has seen an MS nurse twice. She got her first appointment with a physio last month; 8am at Oldham hospital. She can't even get the right inhalers for asthma.This absolutely shouldn’t be seen or used as an alternative “treatment” to allow the system to keep failing you and others mate.
Fuck that.
I really don’t know how to answer your post though mate. Take good care of yourself fella and many on here are always about for a chat.
This 'treatment' utopia you think should exist doesn't. In the last ten years my wife has seen an MS nurse twice. She got her first appointment with a physio last month; 8am at Oldham hospital. She can't even get the right inhalers for asthma.
Yes, it would be great if she got tailored treatment, constant supervision, counselling, physio or even the path outside our house fixed so she could get out on her scooter but she doesn't.
In the real and brutal world many are left with the basics of pain relief and anti-depressants that turn them into emotional zombies.
Now imagine if all that help existed. It would not alter the one daunting fact that MS and other debilitating disease mean symptoms will only get worse.
Why shouldn't people be able to 'check out' whenever they want? I'd guess that in a lot of cases the patient would feel a lot better mentally if they had the means to without even resorting to it.
DNAR should always be discussed with patients/family however ultimately remains a medical decision which is based on the patients medical condition, likelihood of recovery should resuscitation be required and quality of like for that patient.Not sure if this thread has discussed whether the hospital care itself decides if a patient lives or dies.
I remember many years ago with my mum in hospital the consultant told me that if my mum had a heart attack they simply would not resuscitate her.
I argued unsuccessfully that was a fully paid up member of the NHS so deserved full coverage. He said it was hospital policy with older people in my mums condition.
She recovered and left hospital.
She died with a stroke some months later.
My point is that life or death in hospitals appears to be decided by hospitals already without consulting the patient so why this worry about a patient that wants to die?
Thanks for reply.DNAR should always be discussed with patients/family however ultimately remains a medical decision which is based on the patients medical condition, likelihood of recovery should resuscitation be required and quality of like for that patient.
So many family’s want resuscitation on their elderly, frail relatives which by the time these decisions are even considered the likelihood of survival is very limited, and to any quality or length of time very slim. There is absolutely nothing appealing about jumping on the chest of a 90 year old frail patient whose body is naturally at the end of their time.
There’s a huge difference in attempting CPR on someone in their 50’s who’s cardiac function could perhaps be surgically intervened with to give them another 20-40 odd years to doing the same for someone who may live a few more days/weeks during which time they’d be bed ridden, and have zero quality.
This decision is completely different, it is not a conversation about not trying to revive a person already deceased, but to take direct action that results in them being so.
An elderly, frail person who’s heart gives out has reached their natural death, someone able to make the decision to end their life 6 months ahead of what would be their bodies natural death albeit caused by a terminal illness is not reaching a natural death.
Palliative Care is grounded in not taking decisions that either prolong life or hasten death.
Where does assisted dying fit into this and what does that mean for the practice of Palliative care?
Prognosis in life limiting illness can be difficult to predict at times, I myself have known people given a years prognosis to live double and more. By the time people enter the terminal phase where impending death is obvious, many would be unable to make clear, thought out decision which is why a 6 month prognosis is mentioned I’d assume.
Only this month I have supported my friend as her dad died, he became unwell had 2-3 admissions and despite the fact my own Palliative Care nursing experience meant I could clearly see he was dying, he continued to be given fluids which kept an old frail gentleman alive, each time they were stopped he deteriorated again ( no ability/desire to drink independently) and therefore fluid repeated again and again.
At no point was my friend told he was dying except from me.
He wanted resuscitation, as did the family, thankfully that at least was recognised as not in his best interests but for me this whole situation was a failure to correctly identify impending death.
If there are errors in judgement for the very frail, how exactly can we be certain someone has 6 months of life left?
My Gran had dementia for the last 10 years of her life and was in a nursing home.DNAR should always be discussed with patients/family however ultimately remains a medical decision which is based on the patients medical condition, likelihood of recovery should resuscitation be required and quality of like for that patient.
So many family’s want resuscitation on their elderly, frail relatives which by the time these decisions are even considered the likelihood of survival is very limited, and to any quality or length of time very slim. There is absolutely nothing appealing about jumping on the chest of a 90 year old frail patient whose body is naturally at the end of their time.
There’s a huge difference in attempting CPR on someone in their 50’s who’s cardiac function could perhaps be surgically intervened with to give them another 20-40 odd years to doing the same for someone who may live a few more days/weeks during which time they’d be bed ridden, and have zero quality.
This decision is completely different, it is not a conversation about not trying to revive a person already deceased, but to take direct action that results in them being so.
An elderly, frail person who’s heart gives out has reached their natural death, someone able to make the decision to end their life 6 months ahead of what would be their bodies natural death albeit caused by a terminal illness is not reaching a natural death.
Palliative Care is grounded in not taking decisions that either prolong life or hasten death.
Where does assisted dying fit into this and what does that mean for the practice of Palliative care?
Prognosis in life limiting illness can be difficult to predict at times, I myself have known people given a years prognosis to live double and more. By the time people enter the terminal phase where impending death is obvious, many would be unable to make clear, thought out decision which is why a 6 month prognosis is mentioned I’d assume.
Only this month I have supported my friend as her dad died, he became unwell had 2-3 admissions and despite the fact my own Palliative Care nursing experience meant I could clearly see he was dying, he continued to be given fluids which kept an old frail gentleman alive, each time they were stopped he deteriorated again ( no ability/desire to drink independently) and therefore fluid repeated again and again.
At no point was my friend told he was dying except from me.
He wanted resuscitation, as did the family, thankfully that at least was recognised as not in his best interests but for me this whole situation was a failure to correctly identify impending death.
If there are errors in judgement for the very frail, how exactly can we be certain someone has 6 months of life left?