Back On The Chain Gang

Fode N The Hole said:
Why not?
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Why can't we compare Norway to the UK when it comes to crime and punishment? Just look at the difference in crime culture, drug culture, gang culture and so on.
I know young lads around here that don't mind going back to prison...or rather, the punishment is worth the risk of the crime to them.
 
Marklr said:
Why can't we compare Norway to the UK when it comes to crime and punishment? Just look at the difference in crime culture, drug culture, gang culture and so on.
I know young lads around here that don't mind going back to prison...or rather, the punishment is worth the risk of the crime to them.
Click to expand...

Yeah but didn't you say anything about Norwegian crime culture in that comment.

Is this a world away from Manchester drug gangs fighting turf wars?

Nordic Biker War - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
Marklr said:
Yeah, it's nothing like it. Norway is not like ANY other country!! It's not even HALF the crime rate of Sweden!
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You said culture not crime rate. Norway is a much more equal society so naturally there is less crime. But there is also less crime because their prison system discourages recidivism.
 
Marklr said:
Why can't we compare Norway to the UK when it comes to crime and punishment? Just look at the difference in crime culture, drug culture, gang culture and so on.
I know young lads around here that don't mind going back to prison...or rather, the punishment is worth the risk of the crime to them.
Click to expand...
we cant compare Norway to the UK because they have taken an enlightened and forward thinking view of their societal values and implemented policies which have reduced crime. We haven't, our entire system encourages re-offending. We might look at what they have done on this and homelessness and actually learn something rather than shout 'lock em up' very loudly.
 
Marklr said:
Hard Labour. Prison should by like military. Up at 7 for a run around the block. Then some good hard work for the day. Make them hate it so much they never want to go back. But educate them too.
Young lads get to like prison as they have a sense of belonging and comradeship there.
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And hard labour, up at 7 etc will reinforce that sense of belonging. Them against society, you are in effect creating an army, with its own rules and values which will be alien to the rest of society.

If you want people to respect our society, you need to give them a stake in that society not create a parallel society with its own value system.

We lock up too many people, elsewhere in Europe they do the opposite and it works. Trouble is we don’t want it to work. We just want to punish and make them suffer and no matter how many times we get told it won’t work we will just scream and rant and demand tougher and harsher conditions because it makes us feel better. It’s an emotional based system, not a rational one.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
we cant compare Norway to the UK because they have taken an enlightened and forward thinking view of their societal values and implemented policies which have reduced crime. We haven't, our entire system encourages re-offending. We might look at what they have done on this and homelessness and actually learn something rather than shout 'lock em up' very loudly.
Click to expand...
I agree that the justice system isn't working.. and I agree that not all should just be locked up. Still, you can't compare the crime culture of Norway to the UK...what might work in one country, doesn't necessarily work for another.
When we do all the talking and debating it will still come down to the same issue...lack government money.
 
BobKowalski said:
And hard labour, up at 7 etc will reinforce that sense of belonging. Them against society, you are in effect creating an army, with its own rules and values which will be alien to the rest of society.

If you want people to respect our society, you need to give them a stake in that society not create a parallel society with its own value system.

We lock up too many people, elsewhere in Europe they do the opposite and it works. Trouble is we don’t want it to work. We just want to punish and make them suffer and no matter how many times we get told it won’t work we will just scream and rant and demand tougher and harsher conditions because it makes us feel better. It’s an emotional based system, not a rational one.
Click to expand...
I did say that prison should be so they DON'T WANT to go back. The military way and up at 7 is just an idea. The way it is isn't working as many lads don't care if they get sent back.
 
Marklr said:
I agree that the justice system isn't working.. and I agree that not all should just be locked up. Still, you can't compare the crime culture of Norway to the UK...what might work in one country, doesn't necessarily work for another.
When we do all the talking and debating it will still come down to the same issue...lack government money.
Click to expand...
Its not really about lack of government (our taxes) money. Its far more about the priorities and values that drive the spending.

If our society is producing the crime rate that it is, is that the fault of the individual criminals or of the society which produces them? Are prisons for punishment or rehabilitation? I agree that you cant compare Norway to the UK. Our societal values are very different. Norway believes that criminals can be rehabilitated, the homeless can be rehoused and that it is better to spend tax money on initiatives that support those objectives. There is much less social inequality in Norway than the UK and they are regularly towards the top of the various wellbeing indices.

We have a government that are exacerbating social inequality in the UK our crime rate will continue to be a real issue, as will child poverty, homelessness, and all the other societal ills than impact us.These problems are addressed by red meat politics and a right wing press. '
Criminals? Bang em up and throw away the key'
'Immigrants? Send em back to where they came'
'the homeless? Get em off our streets to anywhere we cant see them'
'Food poverty? set up more food banks and get em to queue.

Time to fundamentally reset our values I think.
 
Marklr said:
I did say that prison should be so they DON'T WANT to go back. The military way and up at 7 is just an idea. The way it is isn't working as many lads don't care if they get sent back.
Click to expand...

Okay, so you would support the Netherlands approach where prisons have been closed or Germany where the goal is rehabilitation ‘...many German prisons have the feel of a community, prisoners are given different freedoms and responsibilities. Often, prisoners have television, posters hanging in their cells, or free time to do as they wish’

The Mail would have a fit, Middle England would be outraged and there would be endless threads on here about prisoners having it cushy.

The UK does not want a prison system that works. They want a prison system that fails miserably but makes people feel better.
 
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