Coronavirus (2021) thread

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Nothing of the sort if you look at the ages of those catching it at the moment:15-24
I hope you're right. But with antibody levels at 95% I'm not sure where we go from here? Only 1 in 20 people are without antibodies. Yet, we're seeing 30k+ (and rising) cases. It doesn't make sense!
 
This is perfect for an argument I was having yesterday with an Anti-Vaxxer. Just shared it with him (literally what I was saying vs his argument about how vaccines don't work cause loads of people in hospital have had them).

His response - I don't believe those figures are true. They're made up by liberal media.

My conclusion is that there's no point fighting against stupidity.

I've just( in the last day ) unfollowed someone on Facebook and twitter for the same thing. Basically saying "there is a long history of scientists lying for money, so I dont believe the numbers people post. I will believe what I want to believe".

At which point there is zero point in trying to debate with him.
 
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I hope you're right. But with antibody levels at 95% I'm not sure where we go from here? Only 1 in 20 people are without antibodies. Yet, we're seeing 30k+ (and rising) cases. It doesn't make sense!
5% of people without antibodies is about 3 million people across the uk so there is still a big reservoir of people out there. Plus you can still be susceptible to catching it if you have been vaccinated, although the risk is considerably lower if you have been double jabbed.
 
I've just( in the last day ) unfollowed someone on Facebook and twitter for the same thing. Basically saying "there is a long history of scientists lying for money, so I dont believe the numbers people post. I will believe what I want to believe".

At which point there is zero point in trying to debate with him.
There is a long history of scientists lying for money. They usually release their findings on subjects such as:

How smoking is good for you.
How climate change isn't real.
How vaccines are incredibly dangerous.

Strange how these conspiracy nut jobs only believe the wrong scientists and distrust the honest ones (which accounts for 99% of scientists who actually get their work published).
 
There's a great account here of how headline statistics can be highly misleading on vaccine efficacy.

Short version:
Whilst the headline vaccine efficacy for Israeli data against severe disease is only 67%(!) the actual efficacy for any individual is far higher, generally >>80% and ~90% or higher for most ages.

"Simpson's Paradox" is the technical term.

View attachment 24199

Looks terrible, right?

Breakdown by age:

View attachment 24200

Looks brilliant. This is the same data !

Another take on this particular table
1629457379269.png
Percentage of the unvaccinated pop. that are severe cases = 0.016%
Percentage of the fully vaccinated pop. that are severe cases = 0.005%
Therefore an unvaccinated person is three times more likely to become a severe hospitalised case.

Easy, this stats lark. ;-)
 
There is a long history of scientists lying for money. They usually release their findings on subjects such as:

How smoking is good for you.
How climate change isn't real.
How vaccines are incredibly dangerous.

Strange how these conspiracy nut jobs only believe the wrong scientists and distrust the honest ones (which accounts for 99% of scientists who actually get their work published).

Yep, I was gonna remind him of Occam's razor but didn't want to get dragged into a whole thing on facebook.

"the CDC are moving away from PCR tests in Dec, this is a clear sign something odd and unusual is going on".

To him its nothing to do with PCR tests being expensive and less important in a post vaccine world.

Occam's razor, Follow the money.
 
There's a great account here of how headline statistics can be highly misleading on vaccine efficacy.

Short version:
Whilst the headline vaccine efficacy for Israeli data against severe disease is only 67%(!) the actual efficacy for any individual is far higher, generally >>80% and ~90% or higher for most ages.

"Simpson's Paradox" is the technical term.

View attachment 24199

Looks terrible, right?

Breakdown by age:

View attachment 24200

Looks brilliant. This is the same data !

The thing they didn't mention which would make the vaccine look even better is how they define a severe case. If a severe case is defined as whether someone goes into hospital, it doesn't differentiate between those that just go in for a few days with those that need to stay for much longer. I have seen stats that suggested the average stay in hospital for a vaccinated patient is just 2 or 3 days which is much less than the average for the unvaccinated. If serious illness was defined as a hospital stay for longer than a week I would expect the efficacy figures to be even higher.
 
The thing they didn't mention which would make the vaccine look even better is how they define a severe case. If a severe case is defined as whether someone goes into hospital, it doesn't differentiate between those that just go in for a few days with those that need to stay for much longer. I have seen stats that suggested the average stay in hospital for a vaccinated patient is just 2 or 3 days which is much less than the average for the unvaccinated. If serious illness was defined as a hospital stay for longer than a week I would expect the efficacy figures to be even higher.

Yeah, could well be right, I've no idea what the Israeli definition is.

The wider point is to beware of headline figures, particularly where it's not from a randomised, double blinded trial. There's a very good reason why this sort of data isn't eligible for approval for medicines - it's just too hard to deconvolute the various confounding factors.
 
This is perfect for an argument I was having yesterday with an Anti-Vaxxer. Just shared it with him (literally what I was saying vs his argument about how vaccines don't work cause loads of people in hospital have had them).

His response - I don't believe those figures are true. They're made up by liberal media.

My conclusion is that there's no point fighting against stupidity.
Sadly they are stupid. But they MUST BE CHALENGED or other stupids will believe them
 
This is perfect for an argument I was having yesterday with an Anti-Vaxxer. Just shared it with him (literally what I was saying vs his argument about how vaccines don't work cause loads of people in hospital have had them).

His response - I don't believe those figures are true. They're made up by liberal media.

My conclusion is that there's no point fighting against stupidity.
A simple analogy you could give him, that a pharmacy colleague gave to me. Imagine he catches the virus and his outcomes could be one of; no symptoms at all so he doesn’t even know he’s got it; mild symptoms that respond to paracetamol and the like; quite bad symptoms, leading to five days in bed and feeling pretty wretched; bad symptoms, needing a stay in hospital and oxygen, very bad symptoms, leading to a stay on a hospital ventilator (which isn’t a cake walk) and, finally, really, really bad symptoms leading to any or all the above and then death.
Now, he needs to imagine throwing 2 double 6’s and, if he does, he ends up dead. That’s odds of 36/1 or about 2%. Having the vaccine gives him another dice! His odds are now 216/1 or 0.46%. If he ends up in hospital he’ll wish he’d taken that extra dice….
The younger you are, the more dice you start with, the older you are, the more the extra dice (vaccine) shifts the odds in your favour..
 
This is perfect for an argument I was having yesterday with an Anti-Vaxxer. Just shared it with him (literally what I was saying vs his argument about how vaccines don't work cause loads of people in hospital have had them).

His response - I don't believe those figures are true. They're made up by liberal media.

My conclusion is that there's no point fighting against stupidity.
Similar to the narrative I got from an anti vaxxer a few months ago.

I just asked how her business was going during lock down. She said fine as she does not do "covid bollocks". She told me that I was being lied to by the government and the mainstream media. She knew this because she had done her own "research". I knew that further discussion was pointless.

I said you are talking bollocks and walked away.
 
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