Discuss Pellegrini...(cont)

[Chippy_boy]

Very difficult to assess this season in any clear defined way.

In one sense Pellegrini has had a good first season. Won a trophy. Had more cutting edge which we lacked last season. Got through to the CL knock out stages. And are on course (unless we fuck it up) to finish at least 2nd again with an improved points total in a strange season which as far as Im concerned re: Liverpool who will very likely win it, is a bit of an anomaly within the bigger picture of how things have been developing over the last 4 years. Add to that, our dreadful injury record (even with a squad our size - missing the spine of our team at many points over the season has really hurt us and would have killed off anyone else), and Liverpools unprecedented momentum for a team who previously finished outside of the top 5, it has been reasonably successful.

In another sense, one cannot escape the feeling of regret, failure and regression since we won the title two years ago, which is absolutely not Pellegrini's fault but a smell of it still lingers in terms of mentality. We have not dominated the PL like many of us thought we would. That is not being arrogant. And does not mean everyone expected us to win it 3, 4, 5, 6 times on the bounce. But to have finished quite a few points behind Utd last season and to have never really put a marker down this season or been top for long enough even with injuries is difficult to accept. I thought we would win it at least twice in 3 years and kick on. I accept we haven't 'lost it yet' but deep down we know we have. The two goals this season would have been to have won the title and secured CL knock out qualification. A major trophy is great and something we as fans would never play down having not won anything for decades, but the reality is we are here now. Competing. In a season which saw Utd post-Fergie, Chelsea struggle to score goals, Arsenal all but closing the chapter on Wenger, we are theoretically in danger of standing still. And the reality of FFP lingering. Utd will bounce back and sign one or two big players. Mourinho will improve Chelsea for next season. And Liverpool's stand alone season of momentum will reinvigerate a club which is so hungry for success again. I think next season is going to be harder still post the World Cup. I think we really needed to win the title this year. Just my personal point of view.

Excellent post that bud.

Yes, I am sure this is how many of us feel. If we do end up missing out on the title this year, as we probably all feel in our heart of hearts we will, I can't help but feel that we dropped the ball. Rather than we gave it everything and were in some way unfortunate. You expect mistakes during a season and you can get away with them - a few of them. But there have been just too many; the loss at Cardiff; losing at Sunderland AGAIN; the Chelsea games - especially the first one; the draw at the Emirates; the loss at Anfied. Had ANY of those games not been fucked up as they were, we'd have won it this season I reckon.

(OT. How can we lose 1-0 at Sunderland every year for the past 4 years??? How??? It's just beyond me how we manage to do that. Thank Christ we won't have to play them for a 5th season.

 

[jollylescott]

Very difficult to assess this season in any clear defined way.

In one sense Pellegrini has had a good first season. Won a trophy. Had more cutting edge which we lacked last season. Got through to the CL knock out stages. And are on course (unless we fuck it up) to finish at least 2nd again with an improved points total in a strange season which as far as Im concerned re: Liverpool who will very likely win it, is a bit of an anomaly within the bigger picture of how things have been developing over the last 4 years. Add to that, our dreadful injury record (even with a squad our size - missing the spine of our team at many points over the season has really hurt us and would have killed off anyone else), and Liverpools unprecedented momentum for a team who previously finished outside of the top 5, it has been reasonably successful.

In another sense, one cannot escape the feeling of regret, failure and regression since we won the title two years ago, which is absolutely not Pellegrini's fault but a smell of it still lingers in terms of mentality. We have not dominated the PL like many of us thought we would. That is not being arrogant. And does not mean everyone expected us to win it 3, 4, 5, 6 times on the bounce. But to have finished quite a few points behind Utd last season and to have never really put a marker down this season or been top for long enough even with injuries is difficult to accept. I thought we would win it at least twice in 3 years and kick on. I accept we haven't 'lost it yet' but deep down we know we have. The two goals this season would have been to have won the title and secured CL knock out qualification. A major trophy is great and something we as fans would never play down having not won anything for decades, but the reality is we are here now. Competing. In a season which saw Utd post-Fergie, Chelsea struggle to score goals, Arsenal all but closing the chapter on Wenger, we are theoretically in danger of standing still. And the reality of FFP lingering. Utd will bounce back and sign one or two big players. Mourinho will improve Chelsea for next season. And Liverpool's stand alone season of momentum will reinvigerate a club which is so hungry for success again. I think next season is going to be harder still post the World Cup. I think we really needed to win the title this year. Just my personal point of view.

Excellent post that bud.

I'll second that. It's been a season of what might have been. It actually was a perfect time to reclaim the title when looking at Chelsea playing with a 39 year old centre forward, the rags being utterly hopeless, Arsenal only having one striker, and the Spuds being their usual selves.

I think we need to look very carefully post season at our training regimes, our medical treatment setup, how to balance playing so many games and which competitions to prioritise, trying to preserve our key players by reducing their game time as much as possible in the lesser competitions, and equally as importantly the psychology of winning and sustaining a high level of performance (our collective 'mentality').

Sustaining a title run requires some luck with aspects such as injuries, but at the same time we need to reflect very carefully on all aspects of the season from beginning in the pre-season until the last game. There are many things that Pellers will be able to improve. He needs to learn and implement from the time the first ball is kicked next season. We simply can't afford another slow start like this season.

 

[mancity1]

Very difficult to assess this season in any clear defined way.

In one sense Pellegrini has had a good first season. Won a trophy. Had more cutting edge which we lacked last season. Got through to the CL knock out stages. And are on course (unless we fuck it up) to finish at least 2nd again with an improved points total in a strange season which as far as Im concerned re: Liverpool who will very likely win it, is a bit of an anomaly within the bigger picture of how things have been developing over the last 4 years. Add to that, our dreadful injury record (even with a squad our size - missing the spine of our team at many points over the season has really hurt us and would have killed off anyone else), and Liverpools unprecedented momentum for a team who previously finished outside of the top 5, it has been reasonably successful.

In another sense, one cannot escape the feeling of regret, failure and regression since we won the title two years ago, which is absolutely not Pellegrini's fault but a smell of it still lingers in terms of mentality. We have not dominated the PL like many of us thought we would. That is not being arrogant. And does not mean everyone expected us to win it 3, 4, 5, 6 times on the bounce. But to have finished quite a few points behind Utd last season and to have never really put a marker down this season or been top for long enough even with injuries is difficult to accept. I thought we would win it at least twice in 3 years and kick on. I accept we haven't 'lost it yet' but deep down we know we have. The two goals this season would have been to have won the title and secured CL knock out qualification. A major trophy is great and something we as fans would never play down having not won anything for decades, but the reality is we are here now. Competing. In a season which saw Utd post-Fergie, Chelsea struggle to score goals, Arsenal all but closing the chapter on Wenger, we are theoretically in danger of standing still. And the reality of FFP lingering. Utd will bounce back and sign one or two big players. Mourinho will improve Chelsea for next season. And Liverpool's stand alone season of momentum will reinvigerate a club which is so hungry for success again. I think next season is going to be harder still post the World Cup. I think we really needed to win the title this year. Just my personal point of view.

Excellent post that bud.

Yes, I am sure this is how many of us feel. If we do end up missing out on the title this year, as we probably all feel in our heart of hearts we will, I can't help but feel that we dropped the ball. Rather than we gave it everything and were in some way unfortunate. You expect mistakes during a season and you can get away with them - a few of them. But there have been just too many; the loss at Cardiff; losing at Sunderland AGAIN; the Chelsea games - especially the first one; the draw at the Emirates; the loss at Anfied. Had ANY of those games not been fucked up as they were, we'd have won it this season I reckon.

Things have fallen into place in perfect harmony for Liverpool but you are right if we come up short we only have ourselves to blame.

As for under achiever , I said at the start in my opinion a top three finish would be a realistic target for MP this year and hopefully he will achieve that.

It his first year in a new country , new environment , new players , 5 new players to blood in etc etc and four competitions to focus on with some suspect players both injury wise and motivational wise on a week to week to basis.

A top three finish , progress in Europe , A league Cup and QTR final finish in the FA Cup in your first year after the disappointment of last season especially towards the end of the season is a pass mark in my book.

He would expect and we would expect a better start especially away from home next season but as it stand now he has done a fair job in my book.

 

[gio's side step]

Very difficult to assess this season in any clear defined way.

In one sense Pellegrini has had a good first season. Won a trophy. Had more cutting edge which we lacked last season. Got through to the CL knock out stages. And are on course (unless we fuck it up) to finish at least 2nd again with an improved points total in a strange season which as far as Im concerned re: Liverpool who will very likely win it, is a bit of an anomaly within the bigger picture of how things have been developing over the last 4 years. Add to that, our dreadful injury record (even with a squad our size - missing the spine of our team at many points over the season has really hurt us and would have killed off anyone else), and Liverpools unprecedented momentum for a team who previously finished outside of the top 5, it has been reasonably successful.

In another sense, one cannot escape the feeling of regret, failure and regression since we won the title two years ago, which is absolutely not Pellegrini's fault but a smell of it still lingers in terms of mentality. We have not dominated the PL like many of us thought we would. That is not being arrogant. And does not mean everyone expected us to win it 3, 4, 5, 6 times on the bounce. But to have finished quite a few points behind Utd last season and to have never really put a marker down this season or been top for long enough even with injuries is difficult to accept. I thought we would win it at least twice in 3 years and kick on. I accept we haven't 'lost it yet' but deep down we know we have. The two goals this season would have been to have won the title and secured CL knock out qualification. A major trophy is great and something we as fans would never play down having not won anything for decades, but the reality is we are here now. Competing. In a season which saw Utd post-Fergie, Chelsea struggle to score goals, Arsenal all but closing the chapter on Wenger, we are theoretically in danger of standing still. And the reality of FFP lingering. Utd will bounce back and sign one or two big players. Mourinho will improve Chelsea for next season. And Liverpool's stand alone season of momentum will reinvigerate a club which is so hungry for success again. I think next season is going to be harder still post the World Cup. I think we really needed to win the title this year. Just my personal point of view.

Excellent post that bud.

I'll second that. It's been a season of what might have been. It actually was a perfect time to reclaim the title when looking at Chelsea playing with a 39 year old centre forward, the rags being utterly hopeless, Arsenal only having one striker, and the Spuds being their usual selves.

I think we need to look very carefully post season at our training regimes, our medical treatment setup, how to balance playing so many games and which competitions to prioritise, trying to preserve our key players by reducing their game time as much as possible in the lesser competitions, and equally as importantly the psychology of winning and sustaining a high level of performance (our collective 'mentality').

Sustaining a title run requires some luck with aspects such as injuries, but at the same time we need to reflect very carefully on all aspects of the season from beginning in the pre-season until the last game. There are many things that Pellers will be able to improve. He needs to learn and implement from the time the first ball is kicked next season. We simply can't afford another slow start like this season.

Yep, agreed. Generally, I would say it is rather anecdotal for us as fans to produce a medical analysis or to conclude a flawed approach to recovery of injuries and thus leave it to the experts, but we have simply seen too many now (particularly soft tissue injuries). If it's not Toure off to the African nations cup or ill discipline (sendings off had cost us in previous years) it is this consistent run of injuries usually to the same players (Kompany, Silva, Aguero) and add Nastasic this season and the strange unidentified injury of Jovetic earlier on. The 'we have a huge squad and should be able to cope' is usually a narrative perpetuated by envious fans of other clubs. But had Suarez missed over 40% of Liverpool's season they would probably be 5th.

It seems to be about recovery - and playing too many key players in too many competitions. In terms of the latter point - Pellegrini was not responsible for those individual horrific mistakes made by Hart which cost us dearly early on. And one or two other players too. There have been times (Chelsea cup game), Utd (away), Spurs (away) where I have felt - this manager is top drawer and the players have real belief almost arrogance in the right way that we are the best and are ready to show it. But we simply have not been able to maintain it. I actually feel the Wigan home defeat hurt us a lot mentally at home. I think we became more vulnerable to the counter attack where at other times it hasn't hurt us as much. Our performances at home since that defeat have generally been average.

 

[johnson28392]

I think the issue you'd have with the above formation would be the lack of width, but with a little shuffling around, it wouldn't be too far off my preference. I get what you're saying about Aguero too, but I think if we attacked and defended as a unit he wouldn't become isolated and would have more than enough support around him.

I wouldn't have it as the primary formation but maybe as a secondary option. We've been a one trick pony this season. 4-2-2-2 and 4-2-3-1 are the same for me.

Liverpool might win the title this season and if you analyze their season you'll find that they've used more than one formation (4-2-2-2, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 diamond, 3-4-3, 3-5-2) .. this is how they got so many points .. when they find a game difficult, they just switch to a different formation to get gain more control or to be better defensively.

Everton is another club that utilizes a variety of formations, they've won so many points this season because of that.

Again I agree with you about us having a dearth of pacy goals scoring wingers/wide attackers and yes I agree Jovetic could possibly be the answer on the left as he's played there before for my favourite Italian club Fiorentina. But don't you think he'd be better suited to a No 10 role in a 4-4-2 or as a deep lying striker in a 4-2-3-1? I think Jovetic can be a revelation for us if he can get his fitness right and he offers us endless formation possibilities too.

His best position is off the main striker. But I think he can play in a narrow 4-3-3 or behind the two strikers in a 4-4-2 diamond.

4-3-3 / 4-1-2-3 / 4-1-4-1

Zabaleta--------------Kompany-----------MDM------------------Clichy

-------------------------------------Fernandinho------------------------------

---------------------Yaya-------------------------------Silva--------------------

Nasri-----------------------------Aguero-----------------------------Jovetic

Considering we have Navas, Milner, Negredo, Garcia there too, the possibilities would be endless.

4-2-1-3 / 4-2-3-1 / 4-4-2

Zabaleta--------------Kompany-----------MDM----------------Kolorov

-------------------Yaya---------------------------Fernandinho--------------

------------------------------------Jovetic---------------------------------------

Navas---------------------------Negredo---------------------------Milner

That's the thing with formations is as the match progresses they evolve and with the above formation, if Jovetic goes alongside Negredo, it's a 4-4-2. The important thing for me though is what we do when defending. If Jovetic drops deep, we don't get swamped in the midfield, if he stays up front we are light in midfield if the opposition play 3 in there albeit we are stronger up front IF the ball breaks for us. I suppose it's about personal preference and I'd always opt for being stronger in midfield and for the midfield to support the attack or defence when needed.

We'd be sound in defense and get a lot of control in midfield but unfortunately 4-3-3 brings the worse out of Aguero who's like our star man, the player whom the club want to build a team around. Navas , Milner and Nasri would be isolated too and I don't think they like to be isolated.

 

[TFC]

I think the next 5 games will tell us a lot about Manuel and his ability to pick up a tired squad missing key players at a vital time.

Despite the early goal against Sunderland we really didnt look 'up for it' at all and that was a concern for me, against WBA we were far more cool and clinical and despite them having a couple of good breakaways, we never really had to get out of first gear.

This weekend we are going to be harried, pressured, Palace will really come at us in front of a really vocal crowd (as an aside, how fucking good have the Palace fans been this season?) and we are going to have to be right on our game to get the 3 points.

If the dippers beat Chelsea and we come out lethargic and looking like we have given up, fuck that. We should see nothing less than 100% between now and the end, I believe we as fans deserve no less and I doubt the sheikh would expect any less.

 

[mancity1]

I think the next 5 games will tell us a lot about Manuel and his ability to pick up a tired squad missing key players at a vital time.

Despite the early goal against Sunderland we really didnt look 'up for it' at all and that was a concern for me, against WBA we were far more cool and clinical and despite them having a couple of good breakaways, we never really had to get out of first gear.

This weekend we are going to be harried, pressured, Palace will really come at us in front of a really vocal crowd (as an aside, how fucking good have the Palace fans been this season?) and we are going to have to be right on our game to get the 3 points.

If the dippers beat Chelsea and we come out lethargic and looking like we have given up, fuck that. We should see nothing less than 100% between now and the end, I believe we as fans deserve no less and I doubt the sheikh would expect any less.

I agree and I wish we had 5 games to go TFC but alas its four and they should be our best four of the season if truth be told.

Its not a question of what Liverpool or Chelsea do , its what we do , what we know we can do and what we should and in fact must do.

If Everton get three points against Southampton the mind set should change no matter what Liverpool do and again we have to focus on getting three points at Crystal Palace.

It's our most important game of the season in so many ways for so many players and will tell MP at lot about some of them if not all of them.

I expect a more clinical performance on Sunday than we did at home on Wednesday.

I expect a Hull like performance and in many ways its a real test for the side without the player who more than any other showed what being down to ten men against a side away from home after 9 minutes was all about.

If nothing else they owe it to David Silva to a man to put in a real fiar dinkum shift on Sunday.

 

[GazM]

Very difficult to assess this season in any clear defined way.

In one sense Pellegrini has had a good first season. Won a trophy. Had more cutting edge which we lacked last season. Got through to the CL knock out stages. And are on course (unless we fuck it up) to finish at least 2nd again with an improved points total in a strange season which as far as Im concerned re: Liverpool who will very likely win it, is a bit of an anomaly within the bigger picture of how things have been developing over the last 4 years. Add to that, our dreadful injury record (even with a squad our size - missing the spine of our team at many points over the season has really hurt us and would have killed off anyone else), and Liverpools unprecedented momentum for a team who previously finished outside of the top 5, it has been reasonably successful.

In another sense, one cannot escape the feeling of regret, failure and regression since we won the title two years ago, which is absolutely not Pellegrini's fault but a smell of it still lingers in terms of mentality. We have not dominated the PL like many of us thought we would. That is not being arrogant. And does not mean everyone expected us to win it 3, 4, 5, 6 times on the bounce. But to have finished quite a few points behind Utd last season and to have never really put a marker down this season or been top for long enough even with injuries is difficult to accept. I thought we would win it at least twice in 3 years and kick on. I accept we haven't 'lost it yet' but deep down we know we have. The two goals this season would have been to have won the title and secured CL knock out qualification. A major trophy is great and something we as fans would never play down having not won anything for decades, but the reality is we are here now. Competing. In a season which saw Utd post-Fergie, Chelsea struggle to score goals, Arsenal all but closing the chapter on Wenger, we are theoretically in danger of standing still. And the reality of FFP lingering. Utd will bounce back and sign one or two big players. Mourinho will improve Chelsea for next season. And Liverpool's stand alone season of momentum will reinvigerate a club which is so hungry for success again. I think next season is going to be harder still post the World Cup. I think we really needed to win the title this year. Just my personal point of view.

+1. Spot on - you have to seize the moment. Next season will be even tougher. We have blown it this season & last as well.

 

[Dribble]

I think the issue you'd have with the above formation would be the lack of width, but with a little shuffling around, it wouldn't be too far off my preference. I get what you're saying about Aguero too, but I think if we attacked and defended as a unit he wouldn't become isolated and would have more than enough support around him.

I wouldn't have it as the primary formation but maybe as a secondary option. We've been a one trick pony this season. 4-2-2-2 and 4-2-3-1 are the same for me.

Liverpool might win the title this season and if you analyze their season you'll find that they've used more than one formation (4-2-2-2, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 diamond, 3-4-3, 3-5-2) .. this is how they got so many points .. when they find a game difficult, they just switch to a different formation to get gain more control or to be better defensively.

Everton is another club that utilizes a variety of formations, they've won so many points this season because of that.

Again I agree with you about us having a dearth of pacy goals scoring wingers/wide attackers and yes I agree Jovetic could possibly be the answer on the left as he's played there before for my favourite Italian club Fiorentina. But don't you think he'd be better suited to a No 10 role in a 4-4-2 or as a deep lying striker in a 4-2-3-1? I think Jovetic can be a revelation for us if he can get his fitness right and he offers us endless formation possibilities too.

His best position is off the main striker. But I think he can play in a narrow 4-3-3 or behind the two strikers in a 4-4-2 diamond.

4-3-3 / 4-1-2-3 / 4-1-4-1

Zabaleta--------------Kompany-----------MDM------------------Clichy

-------------------------------------Fernandinho------------------------------

---------------------Yaya-------------------------------Silva--------------------

Nasri-----------------------------Aguero-----------------------------Jovetic

Considering we have Navas, Milner, Negredo, Garcia there too, the possibilities would be endless.

4-2-1-3 / 4-2-3-1 / 4-4-2

Zabaleta--------------Kompany-----------MDM----------------Kolorov

-------------------Yaya---------------------------Fernandinho--------------

------------------------------------Jovetic---------------------------------------

Navas---------------------------Negredo---------------------------Milner

That's the thing with formations is as the match progresses they evolve and with the above formation, if Jovetic goes alongside Negredo, it's a 4-4-2. The important thing for me though is what we do when defending. If Jovetic drops deep, we don't get swamped in the midfield, if he stays up front we are light in midfield if the opposition play 3 in there albeit we are stronger up front IF the ball breaks for us. I suppose it's about personal preference and I'd always opt for being stronger in midfield and for the midfield to support the attack or defence when needed.

We'd be sound in defense and get a lot of control in midfield but unfortunately 4-3-3 brings the worse out of Aguero who's like our star man, the player whom the club want to build a team around. Navas , Milner and Nasri would be isolated too and I don't think they like to be isolated.

Don't you think being more compact as a team where attacking & Defending is concerned will stop them from being isolated? This is what I've seen of us playing an out and out 4-4-2 as in when we played Bayern and Sunderland both at home where the 2 attackers were stood on the halfway line whilst we were under pressure.

Navas, Milner & Nasri don't play as attackers but, I've always believed we're at our best when we play as a compact unit because when we play further away from each other, we can get swamped in midfield and have to play long balls to bring the strikers into play.

I saw this interesting article earlier which certainly raises some of the issues we've discussed in terms of tactic's etc.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2014/04/24/4772113/-

 

[Bill]

Very difficult to assess this season in any clear defined way.

In one sense Pellegrini has had a good first season. Won a trophy. Had more cutting edge which we lacked last season. Got through to the CL knock out stages. And are on course (unless we fuck it up) to finish at least 2nd again with an improved points total in a strange season which as far as Im concerned re: Liverpool who will very likely win it, is a bit of an anomaly within the bigger picture of how things have been developing over the last 4 years. Add to that, our dreadful injury record (even with a squad our size - missing the spine of our team at many points over the season has really hurt us and would have killed off anyone else), and Liverpools unprecedented momentum for a team who previously finished outside of the top 5, it has been reasonably successful.

In another sense, one cannot escape the feeling of regret, failure and regression since we won the title two years ago, which is absolutely not Pellegrini's fault but a smell of it still lingers in terms of mentality. We have not dominated the PL like many of us thought we would. That is not being arrogant. And does not mean everyone expected us to win it 3, 4, 5, 6 times on the bounce. But to have finished quite a few points behind Utd last season and to have never really put a marker down this season or been top for long enough even with injuries is difficult to accept. I thought we would win it at least twice in 3 years and kick on. I accept we haven't 'lost it yet' but deep down we know we have. The two goals this season would have been to have won the title and secured CL knock out qualification. A major trophy is great and something we as fans would never play down having not won anything for decades, but the reality is we are here now. Competing. In a season which saw Utd post-Fergie, Chelsea struggle to score goals, Arsenal all but closing the chapter on Wenger, we are theoretically in danger of standing still. And the reality of FFP lingering. Utd will bounce back and sign one or two big players. Mourinho will improve Chelsea for next season. And Liverpool's stand alone season of momentum will reinvigerate a club which is so hungry for success again. I think next season is going to be harder still post the World Cup. I think we really needed to win the title this year. Just my personal point of view.

bang on the money.