Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 4)

[FantasyIreland]

Past Quarter finalists.

Benfica.

So to answer my original question which was what division are we talking about. You think the Portuguese Primeira league?

Definitely no good players have come from there... just Falcao. Hulk. Witsel. Luiz. Moutinho. Rodriguez. Coentrao. Fernandez. Di Maria.

Bebe.

 

[BertTrautmann'sParachute]

Ronaldo came from Sporting Lisbon

Rubbish - he was left on the steps of Old trafford as a baby. SALF took him in and the rest is history.

I've heard he was actually conceived in the food storage area at Lou Macari's chippy.

That would explain the overly-greasy hair....

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Rubbish - he was left on the steps of Old trafford as a baby. SALF took him in and the rest is history.

I've heard he was actually conceived in the food storage area at Lou Macari's chippy.

That would explain the overly-greasy hair....

And the chip on his shoulder.

 

[kenzie115]

For all the excuses being made, we have a squad that should be doing much, much better.

People are talking a if our squad players are hopeless. Plenty of clhbs would love to have the likes of Kolarov, Micah, Garcia (yes even Garcia), Rodwell, Milner, Dzeko as first teamers let alone bench players.

Everyone needs go improve, including the manager. I reckon theres a good chance that will happen. But lets not downplay what we are capable of.

The difference is, if any of those players were at teams where they were playing regularly they'd be developing understandings with their fellow players and improving the team as a whole. It's widely acknowledged that our first XI is very good, we can even make a couple of changes to it and it doesn't affect it too much. However, once you start changing 4, 5 or 6 players, half the team is suddenly players that haven't been playing together regularly. Yes they train together every day but every professional will tell you it's nothing like playing matches. This results in a lack of cohesion and slows everything down.

One of the main problems with having 2 top drawer players per position is that they all expect to play, this means rotation, and rotation results in an unsettled first XI which can have a negative impact on the way the team as a whole perform.

The teams that have won the Premier League repeatedly have always had a core of 7, 8 or 9 players who would be in the side for 90% of the games, with unspectacular back ups in reserve. The likes of John O'Shea and Wes Brown have never been and will never be world beaters, but they helped United to multiple titles because they were able to fill in for a few games here and there when the first choice was unavailable.

I think our back ups are very good first teamers, but not so good at being someone who can play three games then not play for a month but still put in a decent performance if called upon again. Dzeko for example has often been described as a confidence player, a player who needs a run of games to hit form. This isn't what you want from a back up, so whilst someone like Hernandez (apologies for all the United references but unfortunately their success makes them an excellent reference) isn't as good a player as Dzeko, he's actually a better back up.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

For all the excuses being made, we have a squad that should be doing much, much better.

People are talking a if our squad players are hopeless. Plenty of clhbs would love to have the likes of Kolarov, Micah, Garcia (yes even Garcia), Rodwell, Milner, Dzeko as first teamers let alone bench players.

Everyone needs go improve, including the manager. I reckon theres a good chance that will happen. But lets not downplay what we are capable of.

The difference is, if any of those players were at teams where they were playing regularly they'd be developing understandings with their fellow players and improving the team as a whole. It's widely acknowledged that our first XI is very good, we can even make a couple of changes to it and it doesn't affect it too much. However, once you start changing 4, 5 or 6 players, half the team is suddenly players that haven't been playing together regularly. Yes they train together every day but every professional will tell you it's nothing like playing matches. This results in a lack of cohesion and slows everything down.

One of the main problems with having 2 top drawer players per position is that they all expect to play, this means rotation, and rotation results in an unsettled first XI which can have a negative impact on the way the team as a whole perform.

The teams that have won the Premier League repeatedly have always had a core of 7, 8 or 9 players who would be in the side for 90% of the games, with unspectacular back ups in reserve. The likes of John O'Shea and Wes Brown have never been and will never be world beaters, but they helped United to multiple titles because they were able to fill in for a few games here and there when the first choice was unavailable.

I think our back ups are very good first teamers, but not so good at being someone who can play three games then not play for a month but still put in a decent performance if called upon again. Dzeko for example has often been described as a confidence player, a player who needs a run of games to hit form. This isn't what you want from a back up, so whilst someone like Hernandez (apologies for all the United references but unfortunately their success makes them an excellent reference) isn't as good a player as Dzeko, he's actually a better back up.

That's a very astute post. The gap in class between our first choices and our second is also accentuated by the fast, tight, incisive passing game Pellegrini is trying to instill. We have a number of players with great ability who, as well as needing regular games, are not that kind of footballer. Milner, lescott and dzeko spring to mind.

 

[M147WN]

FFS the way people talk about Garcia it is like we bought him from the fucking third division in Scotland.

If I didn't know better......

...McGarcia??

 

[hgblue]

For all the excuses being made, we have a squad that should be doing much, much better.

People are talking a if our squad players are hopeless. Plenty of clhbs would love to have the likes of Kolarov, Micah, Garcia (yes even Garcia), Rodwell, Milner, Dzeko as first teamers let alone bench players.

Everyone needs go improve, including the manager. I reckon theres a good chance that will happen. But lets not downplay what we are capable of.

The difference is, if any of those players were at teams where they were playing regularly they'd be developing understandings with their fellow players and improving the team as a whole. It's widely acknowledged that our first XI is very good, we can even make a couple of changes to it and it doesn't affect it too much. However, once you start changing 4, 5 or 6 players, half the team is suddenly players that haven't been playing together regularly. Yes they train together every day but every professional will tell you it's nothing like playing matches. This results in a lack of cohesion and slows everything down.

One of the main problems with having 2 top drawer players per position is that they all expect to play, this means rotation, and rotation results in an unsettled first XI which can have a negative impact on the way the team as a whole perform.

The teams that have won the Premier League repeatedly have always had a core of 7, 8 or 9 players who would be in the side for 90% of the games, with unspectacular back ups in reserve. The likes of John O'Shea and Wes Brown have never been and will never be world beaters, but they helped United to multiple titles because they were able to fill in for a few games here and there when the first choice was unavailable.

I think our back ups are very good first teamers, but not so good at being someone who can play three games then not play for a month but still put in a decent performance if called upon again. Dzeko for example has often been described as a confidence player, a player who needs a run of games to hit form. This isn't what you want from a back up, so whilst someone like Hernandez (apologies for all the United references but unfortunately their success makes them an excellent reference) isn't as good a player as Dzeko, he's actually a better back up.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.....

 

[lancs blue]

For all the excuses being made, we have a squad that should be doing much, much better.

People are talking a if our squad players are hopeless. Plenty of clhbs would love to have the likes of Kolarov, Micah, Garcia (yes even Garcia), Rodwell, Milner, Dzeko as first teamers let alone bench players.

Everyone needs go improve, including the manager. I reckon theres a good chance that will happen. But lets not downplay what we are capable of.

The difference is, if any of those players were at teams where they were playing regularly they'd be developing understandings with their fellow players and improving the team as a whole. It's widely acknowledged that our first XI is very good, we can even make a couple of changes to it and it doesn't affect it too much. However, once you start changing 4, 5 or 6 players, half the team is suddenly players that haven't been playing together regularly. Yes they train together every day but every professional will tell you it's nothing like playing matches. This results in a lack of cohesion and slows everything down.

One of the main problems with having 2 top drawer players per position is that they all expect to play, this means rotation, and rotation results in an unsettled first XI which can have a negative impact on the way the team as a whole perform.

The teams that have won the Premier League repeatedly have always had a core of 7, 8 or 9 players who would be in the side for 90% of the games, with unspectacular back ups in reserve. The likes of John O'Shea and Wes Brown have never been and will never be world beaters, but they helped United to multiple titles because they were able to fill in for a few games here and there when the first choice was unavailable.

I think our back ups are very good first teamers, but not so good at being someone who can play three games then not play for a month but still put in a decent performance if called upon again. Dzeko for example has often been described as a confidence player, a player who needs a run of games to hit form. This isn't what you want from a back up, so whilst someone like Hernandez (apologies for all the United references but unfortunately their success makes them an excellent reference) isn't as good a player as Dzeko, he's actually a better back up.

Ferguson rotated his squad as a matter of course for years, even the "core" of Wio,Rooney, Scholes, Giggs were rotated.

 

[flb]

All of a sudden we've gone from having the best squad in the premiership to one that now needs a defensive and midfield overhaul.

here's me thinking that the Messiah was renown for getting the best out of his players and how he took Malaga to the semi's of the CL blah blah fucking blah.


Seems there are a few posters on here downplaying things telling us we need to throw money at it again.

Is this going to be a transitional year?

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Past Quarter finalists.

Benfica.

So to answer my original question which was what division are we talking about. You think the Portuguese Primeira league?

Definitely no good players have come from there... just Falcao. Hulk. Witsel. Luiz. Moutinho. Rodriguez. Coentrao. Fernandez. Di Maria.

I didn't say no good players come from that division, did I? I was implying that most decent players wouldn't go to that division and in this instance you're not talking about him coming from that division, you're talking about him (hypothetically) going back to that division. So I'm not sure that the point you're trying to make is relevant.

 

[levets]

For all the excuses being made, we have a squad that should be doing much, much better.

People are talking a if our squad players are hopeless. Plenty of clhbs would love to have the likes of Kolarov, Micah, Garcia (yes even Garcia), Rodwell, Milner, Dzeko as first teamers let alone bench players.

Everyone needs go improve, including the manager. I reckon theres a good chance that will happen. But lets not downplay what we are capable of.

When you say plenty of clubs would love to have Garcia, which division are we talking about?

Champions league level.

FFS the way people talk about Garcia it is like we bought him from the fucking third division in Scotland.

Captain of Benfica, Regular participant in CL, Played very well for Benfica V Chelsea in CL QF at the bridge.. and scored. Is a Spanish international... But people say he's shit FFS!

 

[OB1]

For all the excuses being made, we have a squad that should be doing much, much better.

People are talking a if our squad players are hopeless. Plenty of clhbs would love to have the likes of Kolarov, Micah, Garcia (yes even Garcia), Rodwell, Milner, Dzeko as first teamers let alone bench players.

Everyone needs go improve, including the manager. I reckon theres a good chance that will happen. But lets not downplay what we are capable of.

When you say plenty of clubs would love to have Garcia, which division are we talking about?

Champions league level.

FFS the way people talk about Garcia it is like we bought him from the fucking third division in Scotland.

Come on, you've got to be a shit player if you can only achieve the 2nd best pass completion stats in the Premier League.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

When you say plenty of clubs would love to have Garcia, which division are we talking about?

Champions league level.

FFS the way people talk about Garcia it is like we bought him from the fucking third division in Scotland.

Captain of Benfica, Regular participant in CL, Played very well for Benfica V Chelsea in CL QF at the bridge.. and scored. Is a Spanish international... But people say he's shit FFS!

That's because they don't give a shit how he played for Benfica, they only care how he plays for us. It's like suggesting that people shouldn't have moaned about Gerry Creaney because he was ok for Portsmouth before we signed him.

 

[levets]

Champions league level.

FFS the way people talk about Garcia it is like we bought him from the fucking third division in Scotland.

Captain of Benfica, Regular participant in CL, Played very well for Benfica V Chelsea in CL QF at the bridge.. and scored. Is a Spanish international... But people say he's shit FFS!

That's because they don't give a shit how he played for Benfica, they only care how he plays for us. It's like suggesting that people shouldn't have moaned about Gerry Creaney because he was ok for Portsmouth before we signed him.

That's not my point. In any case, there have been FAR WORSE performances from established players than Garcia this season. He is just the whipping boy, the easy target.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Champions league level.

FFS the way people talk about Garcia it is like we bought him from the fucking third division in Scotland.

Captain of Benfica, Regular participant in CL, Played very well for Benfica V Chelsea in CL QF at the bridge.. and scored. Is a Spanish international... But people say he's shit FFS!

That's because they don't give a shit how he played for Benfica, they only care how he plays for us. It's like suggesting that people shouldn't have moaned about Gerry Creaney because he was ok for Portsmouth before we signed him.

I bet it didn't take long to come up with your example. The list of strikers who were good before they joined us but then went shit is pretty damn long.

 

[flb]

When you say plenty of clubs would love to have Garcia, which division are we talking about?

Champions league level.

FFS the way people talk about Garcia it is like we bought him from the fucking third division in Scotland.

Come on, you've got to be a shit player if you can only achieve the 2nd best pass completion stats in the Premier League.

1 yard or two yard passes?

How about successful tackles?

How about pace?

How about not bursting into fucking tears when roughed up by the mighty Sunderland midfield?

Give it a break pal, just perhaps Lord Pellagrini just hasn't a fucking clue what makes a top class PL midfielder?

Garcia was shit last season and he's shit this season.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

When you say plenty of clubs would love to have Garcia, which division are we talking about?

Champions league level.

FFS the way people talk about Garcia it is like we bought him from the fucking third division in Scotland.

Come on, you've got to be a shit player if you can only achieve the 2nd best pass completion stats in the Premier League.

When they start playing football on an excel spreadsheet of statistical data instead of on a pitch then I'm sure Garcia will be brilliant.

 

[HolisticJim]

When you say plenty of clubs would love to have Garcia, which division are we talking about?

Champions league level.

FFS the way people talk about Garcia it is like we bought him from the fucking third division in Scotland.

Captain of Benfica, Regular participant in CL, Played very well for Benfica V Chelsea in CL QF at the bridge.. and scored. Is a Spanish international... But people say he's shit FFS!

He is shit. Easily the worst player of the Khaldoon era.

 

[kenzie115]

For all the excuses being made, we have a squad that should be doing much, much better.

People are talking a if our squad players are hopeless. Plenty of clhbs would love to have the likes of Kolarov, Micah, Garcia (yes even Garcia), Rodwell, Milner, Dzeko as first teamers let alone bench players.

Everyone needs go improve, including the manager. I reckon theres a good chance that will happen. But lets not downplay what we are capable of.

The difference is, if any of those players were at teams where they were playing regularly they'd be developing understandings with their fellow players and improving the team as a whole. It's widely acknowledged that our first XI is very good, we can even make a couple of changes to it and it doesn't affect it too much. However, once you start changing 4, 5 or 6 players, half the team is suddenly players that haven't been playing together regularly. Yes they train together every day but every professional will tell you it's nothing like playing matches. This results in a lack of cohesion and slows everything down.

One of the main problems with having 2 top drawer players per position is that they all expect to play, this means rotation, and rotation results in an unsettled first XI which can have a negative impact on the way the team as a whole perform.

The teams that have won the Premier League repeatedly have always had a core of 7, 8 or 9 players who would be in the side for 90% of the games, with unspectacular back ups in reserve. The likes of John O'Shea and Wes Brown have never been and will never be world beaters, but they helped United to multiple titles because they were able to fill in for a few games here and there when the first choice was unavailable.

I think our back ups are very good first teamers, but not so good at being someone who can play three games then not play for a month but still put in a decent performance if called upon again. Dzeko for example has often been described as a confidence player, a player who needs a run of games to hit form. This isn't what you want from a back up, so whilst someone like Hernandez (apologies for all the United references but unfortunately their success makes them an excellent reference) isn't as good a player as Dzeko, he's actually a better back up.

Ferguson rotated his squad as a matter of course for years, even the "core" of Wio,Rooney, Scholes, Giggs were rotated.

My point wasn't that we shouldn't rotate, more that we should have suitable back-ups who are capable of performing the role of a back-up. In my opinion, players like Lescott, Garcia, Richards and Dzeko need to be playing every week to find form and play well. We have a few who I believe you could throw into any game and they'd do a job, like Zabaleta and Milner, but the majority of our "2nd XI" aren't suitable as back-ups, despite the fact they'd do very well in most Premier League first XIs.

 

[FromPollockToSilva]

The difference is, if any of those players were at teams where they were playing regularly they'd be developing understandings with their fellow players and improving the team as a whole. It's widely acknowledged that our first XI is very good, we can even make a couple of changes to it and it doesn't affect it too much. However, once you start changing 4, 5 or 6 players, half the team is suddenly players that haven't been playing together regularly. Yes they train together every day but every professional will tell you it's nothing like playing matches. This results in a lack of cohesion and slows everything down.

One of the main problems with having 2 top drawer players per position is that they all expect to play, this means rotation, and rotation results in an unsettled first XI which can have a negative impact on the way the team as a whole perform.

The teams that have won the Premier League repeatedly have always had a core of 7, 8 or 9 players who would be in the side for 90% of the games, with unspectacular back ups in reserve. The likes of John O'Shea and Wes Brown have never been and will never be world beaters, but they helped United to multiple titles because they were able to fill in for a few games here and there when the first choice was unavailable.

I think our back ups are very good first teamers, but not so good at being someone who can play three games then not play for a month but still put in a decent performance if called upon again. Dzeko for example has often been described as a confidence player, a player who needs a run of games to hit form. This isn't what you want from a back up, so whilst someone like Hernandez (apologies for all the United references but unfortunately their success makes them an excellent reference) isn't as good a player as Dzeko, he's actually a better back up.

Ferguson rotated his squad as a matter of course for years, even the "core" of Wio,Rooney, Scholes, Giggs were rotated.

My point wasn't that we shouldn't rotate, more that we should have suitable back-ups who are capable of performing the role of a back-up. In my opinion, players like Lescott, Garcia, Richards and Dzeko need to be playing every week to find form and play well. We have a few who I believe you could throw into any game and they'd do a job, like Zabaleta and Milner, but the majority of our "2nd XI" aren't suitable as back-ups, despite the fact they'd do very well in most Premier League first XIs.

Assuming that is true (and I'm not wholly convinced by the argument), how do you identify what makes someone suitable to be a rotation player? The Rag players you mentioned (Brown and O'Shea, to which Butt, Fletcher and Phil Neville could all be added) came up through the youth team; do you think that helps with them understanding their role at the club?