Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 4)

[BlueAnorak]

Pellegrini has realised that the high line was killing us with the defenders we have , he`s moved us back which has shut the space in behind us . we are now allowing the opposition more of the ball ala Spurs & Swansea which brings the other team onto us , as a result we are killing teams on the break. In theory this should be even easier to do away from home. Hats off to the manager.

This is how it appears to me as well. Lets hope it is indeed the case. We shall see at the Hawthorns on Wednesday.

 

[daztrueblue91]

The reason why we looked exposed against Swansea in the first half was due to our defence playing to deep. When we are playing 4-2-2-2 and closing the opposition down then it is crucial that the defence pushes up or else there is going to be plenty of room behind the midfield for the opposition to exploit. In my opinion this is what Pellegrini is trying to implement but it will take time and he has been unlucky with Nastasic and Kompany both being injured. Also the high line massively exposes Lescott and Demichellis lack of pace although IMO Demi has the footballing brain to play a high line.

I've heard people say we should change formation but there is no difference between 4-2-3-1 and 4-2-2-2 if we are keeping the same players in the team. Also 4-2-2-2 seems to be getting the best out of our forward players as Negrado, Aguero, Nasri and Silva have all been outstanding this season.

The only time we should think about changing our formation is if we are protecting a lead, against better opposition or are playing a game we must not lose (i.e title rival or knockout match). The minute we get a settled back 4 and replace back up players like Kolarov, Garcia, Lescott and Dzeko with players who will fit our system we will be unstoppable.

Anyone else reckon Rodwell would make a good CB in this system? He is quick, strong, good on the ball and has a good reading of the game.

 

[Ray78]

How have Manchester City and Atletico Madrid have modernized the traditional 4-4-2 formation?

by Zaheer Shah • October 4, 2013 • Comments Off









Manchester City's Jesús Navas, left

The 4-4-2 system is one of the oldest and most used formations in football. It proved a successful platform for many of the greatest teams the world has seen, and many different variations such as the 4-4-2 diamond began evolving. Soon enough, new formations were phased in to combat the effectiveness of the 4-4-2, such as the 4-3-3 and all the different variations that came with it. In recent history, only a handful of teams use a 4-4-2 system, with many preferring a numerical advantage in the midfield.

The “Traditional” 4-4-2 Formation:

A very simple formation, the system’s advantages lay in having a very structured defensive shape (two banks of four), as well as having a combined threat of two strikers. The emphasis of the attack lies in the wide areas where the wingers and fullbacks can combine in order to provide crosses for the two strikers.

The formation evolved through time, but so much in the overall basic shape but the roles within them which altered the shape when attacking, for example, the use of the wide players. When the 4-4-2 formation was at its peak, the use of the wingers were to provide width and service from wide areas, however that soon changed to having one winger providing width and one coming infield to play “between the lines” behind the strikers. Arsenal’s “Invincibles” team used a 4-4-2 formation; however both wingers played relatively centrally and looked to score as many as they assisted. Another evolution of the formation was the roles of the strikers, before they would look to both occupy the opposition central defenders and play within the space of the penalty box, but once again the focus of the evolution was to dominate the space “between the lines”, now one strikers would look to play on the shoulder of the last defender and one striker would drop off into that space.

The most important roles in the formation are the two central midfielders, their combination and the balance they provide to the rest of the team. In previous years, especially in England, many have expected the central midfielders to be dynamic, box to box and be capable of scoring goals. Frank Lampard, Chelsea’s record goal scorer, made the role famous by making late runs into attacking areas and scoring.

Why Did It Phase Out?

The formation, despite being very popular, was problematic once other formations came to the fore. The lack of central midfielders compared to the 4-3-3 meant that the 4-4-2 struggled to compete in midfield. The first solution was to drop one of the strikers back into deeper areas but the obvious problem with that is mind-set. Once the 4-3-3 formation and its variations became the norm, the 4-4-2 had nowhere to go but consigned to the history books.

Adopt, Adapt, And Evolve:

The best thing for tactically astute managers to do was to try and adopt other roles from various formations and utilise them within a 4-4-2 system, doing this will allow the formation to adapt and evolve into a new style 4-4-2 that breaks traditions and creates a new place for itself within football tactics. By taking advantage of the rise in attacking fullbacks, they would now take the place of the “traditional” wingers and provide width for the team; the wingers could then influence the areas in the midfield and potentially create a 4v3 against the 4-3-3 formation. The strikers would split into two separate zones and operate in different manners, one would look to exploit the space between defence and midfield and one would look to operate higher up against the opposition central defenders.

The biggest change however, would come in the central midfield. The “traditional” 4-4-2 would look to the central midfielders for a mix of attacking potency and defensive solidarity. Modern formations have bred various “specialised” roles such as the archetype defensive midfielder and the deep lying playmaker. By breaking tradition and having a midfield pair looking to create balance and a foundation, it allows the rest of the team more freedom to operate in a manner which doesn’t compromise the team’s defensive stability. Rafael Benitez alluded to this during his time with Liverpool, by playing Steven Gerrard in wide areas, it allowed the two central midfielders to control and dictate the game, instead of Gerrard operating high up the pitch and leaving large spaces that can easily be exploited. Many were perplexed by this at the time, such as the tradition of the 4-4-2 that the central midfielder should operate in Gerrard’s manner; nevertheless Benitez went against the grain successfully. The 4-2-3-1 formation has a double-pivot model that has been replicated by the new 4-4-2, a double-pivot that controls games from deeper areas whilst providing protection in front of the defence.

A Modern Transformation:

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Compared to the old shape 4-4-2, this newer, evolved model has more focus on the central areas with both “wide players” playing more centrally and allowing space for the fullbacks to push up and stretch the pitch. Due to the left or right attacking midfielders not being relied on 100% for creativity centrally (due to one of the strikers dropping off), one of the attacking midfielders can easily move into the wide areas and create 2v1 opportunities or provide an infield outlet if there is a 2v2 and the opposition winger doesn’t wish to track infield. Unlike the “traditional” 4-4-2, the central midfielders now have the responsibility to control the game from deeper areas and allow possession to progress up the field, rather than take the responsibility on (like Gerrard) and drive up the field, whilst leaving spaces behind him.

Cast Study 1: Manchester City

Prior to this season, Roberto Mancini played a 4-2-3-1 system and occasionally deployed a 3-5-2, but under new manager, Manuel Pellegrini, Manchester City have favoured a 4-4-2/4-2-2-2. The squad was trimmed and rebuilt with this system in mind, although the squad already possessed many of the key components necessary. Manchester City have started the season fairly well, and have adopted a proactive approach to their game. They consistently have looked to take the game to the opposition by playing with two high quality strikers in varying moulds and two powerful central midfielders. Nonetheless, the two biggest influences on their approach are the attacking midfielders and the fullbacks.

Starting with the attacking midfielders, the usual pair is Jesus Navas and David Silva, both Spanish but play the game very differently. Silva is a more traditional playmaker who looks to receive in space, plays quickly off his first touch and tries to create scoring opportunities in central areas, Navas on the other hand in more in line with an old-school winger who hugs the touchline and looks to beat his defender with pace and deliver crosses.

City have two groups of strikers, roughly speaking, Sergio Aguero and Stevan Jovetic have the technical competency to play in tight space behind the main striker, and possess the pace and drive to attack space created ahead of them by their strike partner. Dzeko and Negredo are more powerful players who are aerially adept, possess very good hold up play and like to operate within the confines of the penalty box. Navas caters to the strengths of the more powerful strikers, whilst Silva caters to the strengths of the more mobile strikers.

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The 4-4-2 system they have in place allows them to combine all these qualities, but due to the proactive nature of the manager, the main ingredient is the attacking fullbacks. Already this season, both Kolarov and Zabaleta have shown their attacking prowess, creating 8 chances between them in the 6 games played in the Premier League so far.

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With this system, Manchester City allow themselves the opportunity to take control of the “possession zones” which enables them to control the game (blue shade), and that gives opportunities to advance into the “scoring zones” which has harboured a lot of success in terms of goal output (red shade).

The wide areas are crucial in the Manchester City wish to play, with Kolarov/Clichy’s attacking tendencies, the penetration they offer on the left hand side alongside the width that Navas and Zabaleta provide on the right gives real impetus to the Manchester City attack. Having two strikers playing also provides a real threat in the box, as opposed to a false threat when only one striker plays against 2 central defenders. The block of 4 (two central midfielders + Silva/Nasri & Aguero/Jovetic provide the numerical advantage which combats formations such as the 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1. This is a key evolution to previous 4-4-2 systems where the weakness was the lack of numbers in the central area which meant being less effective on the ball.

As stated earlier, Manchester City have looked to be proactive in their approach, which means taking control of the game through high numbers in attack, playing on the front foot and looking to sustain pressure on the opposition. In order to do this, the strikers are very important. In other modern systems, only 1 striker is accommodated and teams often use them as a reference point. However in this new 4-4-2, one striker can act as a reference point and the other can look to create overloads in dangerous situations, much like the attacking midfielder does in a 4-2-3-1 system. Edin Dzeko and Alvaro Negredo have both taken turns in acting as the main striker for Manchester City and both have operated largely within the width of their own box, this allowed Sergio Aguero to roam into wide and deep areas to create 2v1 and 3v2s in areas which will allow Manchester City to progress their possession into the more dangerous territories. The work rate of both strikers must be always called into question; one of the strikers (normally Aguero) should always drop deeper into midfield and allow Manchester City an extra outlet in order to build out of pressure. The disadvantage of the system is that a midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 for example, would predominantly offer a better work ethic and defensive awareness that a “second striker” in a 4-4-2.

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s chance creation areas on Squawka, it is clear to see how crucial width is, and how this system has allowed them to utilise this forgotten area in modern football.

Accumulatively, Manchester City have created a total of 35.2% of their chance in advanced wide areas, comparing this to two more centrally focussed teams, Arsenal and Tottenham, they have created a total of 23.5% and 15.2% of their chances from wide areas respectively. Below is a comparison from Whoscored.com, comparing Manchester City’s attack sides (left) compared to Arsenal’s (right). Manchester City’s 4-4-2 system has allowed them to spread their attack to both sides as well as using their “interiors” to create centrally. Arsenal on the other hand are much more focussed centrally than City, however have used one wing in order to progress their possession rather than both.

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In terms of their defensive standpoint, Manchester City play a higher line than a lot of other teams that look to deploy the 4-4-2 system. The weakness of this is that against a team that plays with 3 midfielders and presses high up, the lack of options in midfield can cause to a consistent loss of possession. By playing in a mid-block, Manchester City allow the opposition more opportunities to take advantage of the 3v2 overload in the midfield, if they defended deeper than the space in which can be exploited is much more limited.

Case Study 1 Summary:
•Proactive approach to the game
•Contrasting “interiors” who can provide width, or create chances centrally
•High positioned fullbacks
•Two different strikers who cater to different methods of attack
•More focus on width than other teams who prefer central penetrative zone
•Defensive weakness if striker does not drop deeper due to the mid-block

Case Study 2: Atletico Madrid

Under manager, Diego Simeone, Atletico Madrid has challenged the duopoly of La Liga. Despite losing key players season after season, Atletico have continued to rebuild and flourish even more so in recent years due to a more identifiable philosophy that Simeone has imprinted into the team. Under Simeone however, it is clear to see that the formation he has chosen to precede his relatively fledgling managerial career with is 4-4-2.

Unlike other sides, Atletico Madrid have not taken a proactive approach despite the attacking nature which can be utilised as analysed in the previous case study. Instead, they have adopted a much more reactive approach, utilising the key defensive strength that the 4-4-2 brings which is a structured two-banks-of-four “shield” which contains the opposition attack before launching stinging counter attacks.

Unlike Manchester City, Atletico Madrid haven’t looked for various approaches in attack, instead they have looked to field four technically proficient players in midfield, none of which are comparable to the “traditional” roles of the old 4-4-2 formation. In attack, Atletico possess two quality strikers who individually possess key qualities which Simeone uses to make this system as effective as it is. Their usual 4 midfielders (Koke, Gabi, Suarez, Turan) are all technically efficient passers (some Turan & Koke more so) and are willing workers too which coincides with the philosophy built with the formation.

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Atletico Madrid’s system can be broken down into very simple zones on the pitch and it’s this simplicity which can out do even the most complex of opposition strategies. The yellow shade represents the area of the pitch in which the Atletico Madrid players operate in the most, very condensed and difficult to break down. They defend with a mid-low block and look to suffocate the central areas, the body positioning on approach by the Atletico Madrid players is always intended to show the opposition players into the central areas where there is the most congestion of players.

Once possession is won, Atletico Madrid look to counter attack into areas where the blue shades are, and once the ball is in those areas they will look to make blind-side runs behind the opposition in order to penetrate and create goal scoring opportunities. If the ball is lost, the red shaded area illustrates the “pressing zone” where Atletico will press high up the field to try and win the ball back, should the opposition play out of the red shaded area then Atletico begin to fall back into their usual block. The black shaded area is where both “wide players” will look to come into in both attacking and defensive transitions. By congesting the central areas with 4-6 players, the opposition are forced to play into wide areas where it is easier to delay the attack until Atletico Madrid can revive their shape and begin the initial defensive transactions.

Looking at the individual pairs which make up the 4-4-2 system, it is easy to see how the two systems contrast despite predominantly being the same shape. Although Manchester City uses their “interiors” as the attacking outlets, they are both different in the areas they operate. Atletico Madrid’s “interiors” position themselves wide when in an attacking transition and then look to come into the central areas once the ball is in control in the opposition territory.

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Atletico Madrid’s fullbacks, unlike Manchester City’s, are far more balanced and although not as potent in the final third as a collective, they do offer far more defensive solidarity and adhere to the reactive nature of their system and philosophy. Felipe Luis, the Atletico Madrid left back is used as an outlet more than the more disciplined and considerate Juanfran who positions himself deeper to allow progression in possession, but not penetration.

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A key component in Atletico Madrid’s system is the operation of the strikers, both Diego Costa and David Villa have been fundamental in allowing the system to flourish the way it has. In Villa, Atletico Madrid have a striker who offers consistent and potent runs into space beyond the last defender, this in itself pushes the opposition defence backwards and gives more room to the midfield when counterattacking. Diego Costa on the other hand possesses qualities that allow Atletico Madrid to be the main threat on counter attacks and beyond. Firstly, his rugged nature when defending means he is willing to close down any and all loose balls and sets a precedent for the rest of the team. Secondly upon Atletico Madrid gaining possession he looks to compete aerially and bring others into play high up the field. During the counter attacking phases he will drift into wide areas and manoeuvre various spaces around the pitch whilst Villa occupies the defensive line, and then Costa will look to make runs behind the defence or into the box when possession is high up the field and a cross is viable.

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An illustration of Atletico Madrid’s counter attacking style can be seen in the diagrams below, despite looking to attack down both flanks where they can exploit the space they have created by inviting pressure onto them, a large majority of their shots have come from central areas.

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Case Study 2 Summary:
•Reactive approach to the game
•More emphasis on structure and containment, rather than possession and penetration
•Wide players position themselves like wingers, but play like playmakers
•Fullbacks play a more balanced role
•Strikers are less structured, more importance in their build up and counter attacks

By taking these two case studies into consideration, it can be comparatively analysed that both proactive and reactive approaches can work with this system effectively. The system itself is continuously being evolved and slowly being used by bigger teams such as Real Madrid but is yet to be perfected. The strengths of the system lay in the basic structure in both offense and defence; however the weakness remains that in certain transitions, a formation built to create superiority in midfield can still dominate the ball in critical areas. Only in a few years’ time will we be able to tell whether the continued evolution of the formation was a success, or just a phase. The question that should be posed is whether this new breed of 4-4-2 can make its way back into “footballing fashion” once again

http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/12364 4-4-2 still has it's uses imho.

 

[Rammy Blue]

There is another way, but it requires total concentration and everyone to play their part.

Mancini didn't have the right personnel, but with Fernandino screening, we could catch a few teams off guard with a three at the back?

Hear me out... It fundamentally requires Zab and Kompany to make up two of the spots and if Demichelis had another yard, his reading of the game and distribution would have been ideal.

With a three we could also afford to drop in one of Milner or Rodwell in alongside Fernandinho, play Yaya advanced and still retain Sergio and the Beast?

Something like so....

Zabba.....Komps.......Demi/Nasty
...................Dinho.................
...............Milner.......Yaya......
.................Silva.....Nasri.........
..............Sergio........Beast.......

We are wide open anyhow on the counter but opponents would have to compensate for what is coming at them.

I like to see this formation, I call it "The Suicide Bomber":

Zabba.....Komps.......Demi/Nasty
.......Dinho.......Yaya......
Jesus…….Silva……...Nasri.........
.....Sergio........Beast.......

Funny thing is, Keith, that imo it isn't too deluded to suggest that formation.

I don't think you'd start a game with it, however if chasing a game then I don't think it's too crazy a suggestion - Ferny or Yaya drops into the back 4 when required and we play the ball in 4 lines as opposed to 3.

 

[jollylescott]

had a quick read about some of the suggested formations, including Tolmie's radical idea of 3 at the back.
In my opinion the far more likely formation is what we played against Chelsea (4-5-1).
I am fairly sure that this is how MP will line us up. Apart from being able to give Kun or Alvaro a rest, it worked well against Chelsea (he played Garcia as the extra midfielder).

 

[FantasyIreland]

Samir Nasri has been freed from his shackles to terrorise Premier League defences.

And Yaya Toure gives new boss Manuel Pellegrini the credit for the French ace’s new lease of life, for placing the emphasis on attacking football.

Nasri scored twice and was a constant menace to the Swansea defence as the Blues eventually overpowered the Feisty Welsh side, his first double since he scored both goals for Arsenal in a 2-1 win over Fulham which sent the Gunners top of the league, three years ago.

That season he scored 15, easily the best return of his career, was named French Footballer of the Year and performed well enough to prompt City into a successful £25million bid, beating neighbours United to the punch.

But his career stalled under Roberto Mancini, as the Italian’s bid to cajole the player into greater consistency, and a better work rate, as well as a spat with a French journalist which led to an exile from his international squad, took effect.

Yaya feels that Pellegrini’s more attack-minded philosophy – which has cost the Blues points this season – has helped to restore Nasri to the point of becoming a true world-class talent.

“This year we play more attacking, and the focus of the team is on attack,” said Toure, who has become a close friend of the mercurial star. “The team play very well together and Samir has his freedom.

“When you look at him playing before at Arsenal, he has this same freedom now. Pellegrini allows players like him to attack and enjoy this freedom and it’s fantastic for him and the club.

“When he signed for City, the first year was quite difficult for him. You have to understand tactically that first year was quite hard for him, because he is such an offensive player and when you tell players like that to defend, it affects them, it’s not easy. But this year he is doing everything - he’s been amazing.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

The reason why we looked exposed against Swansea in the first half was due to our defence playing to deep. When we are playing 4-2-2-2 and closing the opposition down then it is crucial that the defence pushes up or else there is going to be plenty of room behind the midfield for the opposition to exploit. In my opinion this is what Pellegrini is trying to implement but it will take time and he has been unlucky with Nastasic and Kompany both being injured. Also the high line massively exposes Lescott and Demichellis lack of pace although IMO Demi has the footballing brain to play a high line.

I've heard people say we should change formation but there is no difference between 4-2-3-1 and 4-2-2-2 if we are keeping the same players in the team. Also 4-2-2-2 seems to be getting the best out of our forward players as Negrado, Aguero, Nasri and Silva have all been outstanding this season.

The only time we should think about changing our formation is if we are protecting a lead, against better opposition or are playing a game we must not lose (i.e title rival or knockout match). The minute we get a settled back 4 and replace back up players like Kolarov, Garcia, Lescott and Dzeko with players who will fit our system we will be unstoppable.

Anyone else reckon Rodwell would make a good CB in this system? He is quick, strong, good on the ball and has a good reading of the game.

Dead right. A point I've made a few times today. As well as getting yaya to sit a bit more it appeared the manager got the back four to push forward and close the space at the end of the first half.

 

[OB1]

The problem for me is they both need to run the show to play at the top of their abilities. Playing them together blunts their effectiveness especially Nasri. This has become glaringly obvious in the last month with Silva's enforced abscence.
We are truly blessed to have two such amazing players in our squad, but for me they are best alternated as opposed to played together.

I don't agree at all mate. When silva and nasri link up with the forwards and yaya, our pass and move game is sublime. You can never leave silva out because he's the best attacking midfielder in the country, and at the moment nasri is playing well too. Navas is the one who will surely make way for silva. He's a good sub too, if we need width and pace.

They used to say that you couldn't play Ali and Eyal together until they started destroying teams for fun.

For me (and so far for pellegrini and Mancini) you never ever leave silva out for football reasons.

I take your point on some levels but still think it unbalances the side to play both as they really like to boss the game. Silva is more versatile in that he likes to drift from right to left. Nasri very much wants to play down the left and cannot function as effectively on the right side.
It's just my opinion...

I am amazed that Dave's response to that opinion was so polite.

 

[fatbloke]

The one and only criticism of Pellegrini is his insistence on playing a 2 man midfield.

I know it works in the main and we have played the best attacking football I've ever seen this season but when we come up against opposition teams who play a 3 man midfield and who are equally as good at retaining possession as we are it becomes glaringly obvious Yaya Toure is completely out of his depth physically to cope with the demands. His lack of pace and stamina in terms of closing the opposition down and maintaining the 'pressing' style leaves us vulnerable and teams with a better quality of player than Swansea will rip us a new one. I know Bayern Munich are the best team in world football right now but that game wouldn't have been so one-sided if Pellegrini had played Silva/Nasri in the middle with Toure and Fernandinho.

That said I love the style and I honestly think it's only a matter of time before the away form comes good.

 

[lasereyes]

The one and only criticism of Pellegrini is his insistence on playing a 2 man midfield.

I know it works in the main and we have played the best attacking football I've ever seen this season but when we come up against opposition teams who play a 3 man midfield and who are equally as good at retaining possession as we are it becomes glaringly obvious Yaya Toure is completely out of his depth physically to cope with the demands. His lack of pace and stamina in terms of closing the opposition down and maintaining the 'pressing' style leaves us vulnerable and teams with a better quality of player than Swansea will rip us a new one. I know Bayern Munich are the best team in world football right now but that game wouldn't have been so one-sided if Pellegrini had played Silva/Nasri in the middle with Toure and Fernandinho.

That said I love the style and I honestly think it's only a matter of time before the away form comes good.

Agree with your basic point on 2 vs. 3 - except I would have played Milner rather than Silva/Nasri alongside Toure and Fernandinho. Same against Chelsea (instead of Garcia).