EU referendum

[Monkfish]

Good job that EU immigration isn't a factor for me then, isn't it when it comes to voting out.

So there's a moot point. Neither am I an isolationist. No, i'm more the rejection of unelected Commissioners, TTIP, protection of banks, forcing a EU superstate, forcing an EU Army, the failure of the Euro, loss of diversity amongst European nations, EU Flag, cheap labour, rather than where a person comes from. Live and let live. I want Britain to trade not just with the EU, but with the world, unrestricted, negotiating with various regions, actually make our elected politicians and government work for their overinflated wages. Migration helps nations thrive but people also need to understand the negative impact of too much migration. Again, not saying I personally have a problem but I understand the logic behind the concerns of those who do (aside from those who can only see skin colour)

Norway seems to have this same attitude, hence why it doesn't mind accepting EU migration as part of it's continuted trade deals. I'm between an EEA and EFTA arrangement or neither, and creating one that is specific to the UK, just as China, Canada, Mexico, India, Brazil, South Korea, Thailand etc have done. I was once a passionte inner in 2005, during 2006-2009 I began having doubts, then I realised I could no longer defend the direction the EU was heading in. My opinions, views and arguements about leaving the EU have been based on fact checked information, I have had my opinions changed one way and the other many times due to lack of accurate information (from both sides of the argument), hence why i've reached the decision that I have.

I honestly feel the European Union is a relic of the 20th Century and has no place being associated with a modern Britain finding it's feet in the world in the foreseeable future. I'd like to see other European nations follow suit, the European Union dissolve into nothing, the Eurozone breakup and for all European nations reform it from the remains, not from within it's current corrupt, totalitarian state.

I can appreciate pretty much all that argument, I'm almost feeling bad about my umlautian teasing, just on balance I reckon jumping now will just be too damaging, and I am not quite as anti some of the further integration that concerns you (i even like the flag), I am not a passionate inner anymore (if I ever was), it's not really something you can be passionate about given the EUs obvious flaws

One thing I am sure of is that you don't need to worry about countries losing their diversity, I see no signs at all of any European countries not adhering to their stereotypes

 

[Metal Biker]

http://campaignforanindependentbritain.org.uk/the-economy/

 

[Metal Biker]

I can appreciate pretty much all that argument, I'm almost feeling bad about my umlautian teasing, just on balance I reckon jumping now will just be too damaging, and I am not quite as anti some of the further integration that concerns you (i even like the flag), I am not a passionate inner anymore (if I ever was), it's not really something you can be passionate about given the EUs obvious flaws

One thing I am sure of is that you don't need to worry about countries losing their diversity, I see no signs at all of any European countries not adhering to their stereotypes

"CAUTION: Rambling ahead!"
Believe me I'm not one of the "Britain leaves, and gold will awash our rivers, the pound will be worth £1000 euros, fuel costs 1p" etc. There will be hardships ahead, financially, for this there will be no doubt. My hope, naive or not, is that our 'good relationship' with Europe will continue, given the fact the EU Commission leader Jean Claude Juncker himself has stated that "No country is forced to remain in the EU. This is not like the Soviet Union" (Or words to that effect) giving me the impression that the EU is a civil, harmonious, voluntary union, and not the bullying "leave and we'll ignore you, refuse trade, fill calais with one billion migrants and generally wipe our noses at you, you silly English Kniggits!" as some papers (both on the remain and leave side) have claimed.

I was born in '84, so i'm not quite in the 'young' bracket, nor the 'older generations' that are generally opposed to the EU. Call it naivite, call it economic ignorance, call it Kevin Keeganesque optimism, I personally feel, that with the world's 5th largest economy, our vacant seat on the World Trade Organisation taken up, our permanent position on the UN Security Council, our links with Europe, the strength of the Commonwealth, the sheer fact that migrants from all over Europe and the world wish to come to Britain in the first place, we can be in a place to do the deals that mean we can govern ourselves, have an electable government that actually has to work hard to earn their inflated wages, and have the finances available to prosper away from the toxic euro currency.

Or it could fail miserably, this is also a stark reality; countries could ignore us, they could only have seen Britain as relevant purely because of our connection within the EU. For me the worst case scenario there is that we become very much like Norway or a Denmark; little clout in world affairs, reduced economy, reduced lifestyle, (okay, bad examples since both Norway and Denmark have some of the highest standards of living in the world) but nothing that would warrent a doomsday scenario, mostly that people won't be able to have two cars anymore, or three holidays a year ( I don't holiday at all, not on the living wage; City and motorcycles are my 'comforts') so financially, I personally don't stand to lose or gain anything if things do got tits up.

Selfish attitude? Possibly, I don't know, but the truth is neither does anyone else, really from what i've read and heard. The '£4,300 loss for every family by 2030' quotes, the '£350m a week lost to the EU' quotes, it's all misguided and inaccurate and no-one can offer anything solid as to what a Britain trading with the world would be like in 2050, for example. I'd like to hear the remain camp give their account of how the UK could continue outside the EU, then we can all compare and judge for ourselves whether it's better or worse or what we want, instead of "hyper inflation, debt debt debt, bread and water living" rhetoric. Democracy, sovereignty, liberty, I place at a much higher value than being able to send a text message on my phone from Madrid. But i'm reminded of this quote when it comes to Britain leaving the EU and making it's own trade deals with the world and Europe;

"A ship is most safest in the harbour, but that is not what ships are made for."

 

[EalingBlue2]

You've clearly not read the educational Joey Barton thread in the General Football Forum have you recently? Calling English Anglo-Saxon can be compared to calling an Indian a Paki.

Your point to ChicagoBlue is spot on though. Plus, IF the economy did take a bit of a hit - it might wake up a lot of people to get shit together - for themselves or the country whoever they may be. We'll be better off in the long run sorting out our own affairs. Even if the EU is something to consider in future with different rules, we need to get out now to sort out the mess we're in before we move forward. Actually, a lot of countries seem to be in a lot bigger mess than us because of the EU.

My point was criminals, rapists, etc come from all races , religions, ethnic backgrounds and I wouldn't label Muslim, Portuguese, Saxon, Celt or Viking scum because of the behaviour of a few.

Where is disagree is we need to sort out our shit, come up with a plan for staying in and a plan for moving out and vote on a strategy for each with, details , plans and answers. The whole thing is a complete fuck up by Cameron and is going to have very bad consequences either way as it is all about nothing and there are no plans, strategies or facts out there. Anyone who makes a big important decision with no plans for afterwards and based on the rankings of a few politicians on each side is a fool and everyone in the UK is asked (in and out) to be a fool

 

[EalingBlue2]

Knew you'd respond with a whataboutism to that mate, bravo. Like clockwork.

What's more, no one has blanket labeled any/all immigrants as scum.

What can you say to someone whose contribution is a one liner defending a British first poster calling immigrants scum? I'm not going to sink to name calling as I don't even know if you were actually defending the far right comments or just being smart.

 

[YPhrunts]

"CAUTION: Rambling ahead!"
Believe me I'm not one of the "Britain leaves, and gold will awash our rivers, the pound will be worth £1000 euros, fuel costs 1p" etc. There will be hardships ahead, financially, for this there will be no doubt. My hope, naive or not, is that our 'good relationship' with Europe will continue, given the fact the EU Commission leader Jean Claude Juncker himself has stated that "No country is forced to remain in the EU. This is not like the Soviet Union" (Or words to that effect) giving me the impression that the EU is a civil, harmonious, voluntary union, and not the bullying "leave and we'll ignore you, refuse trade, fill calais with one billion migrants and generally wipe our noses at you, you silly English Kniggits!" as some papers (both on the remain and leave side) have claimed.

I was born in '84, so i'm not quite in the 'young' bracket, nor the 'older generations' that are generally opposed to the EU. Call it naivite, call it economic ignorance, call it Kevin Keeganesque optimism, I personally feel, that with the world's 5th largest economy, our vacant seat on the World Trade Organisation taken up, our permanent position on the UN Security Council, our links with Europe, the strength of the Commonwealth, the sheer fact that migrants from all over Europe and the world wish to come to Britain in the first place, we can be in a place to do the deals that mean we can govern ourselves, have an electable government that actually has to work hard to earn their inflated wages, and have the finances available to prosper away from the toxic euro currency.

Or it could fail miserably, this is also a stark reality; countries could ignore us, they could only have seen Britain as relevant purely because of our connection within the EU. For me the worst case scenario there is that we become very much like Norway or a Denmark; little clout in world affairs, reduced economy, reduced lifestyle, (okay, bad examples since both Norway and Denmark have some of the highest standards of living in the world) but nothing that would warrent a doomsday scenario, mostly that people won't be able to have two cars anymore, or three holidays a year ( I don't holiday at all, not on the living wage; City and motorcycles are my 'comforts') so financially, I personally don't stand to lose or gain anything if things do got tits up.

Selfish attitude? Possibly, I don't know, but the truth is neither does anyone else, really from what i've read and heard. The '£4,300 loss for every family by 2030' quotes, the '£350m a week lost to the EU' quotes, it's all misguided and inaccurate and no-one can offer anything solid as to what a Britain trading with the world would be like in 2050, for example. I'd like to hear the remain camp give their account of how the UK could continue outside the EU, then we can all compare and judge for ourselves whether it's better or worse or what we want, instead of "hyper inflation, debt debt debt, bread and water living" rhetoric. Democracy, sovereignty, liberty, I place at a much higher value than being able to send a text message on my phone from Madrid. But i'm reminded of this quote when it comes to Britain leaving the EU and making it's own trade deals with the world and Europe;

"A ship is most safest in the harbour, but that is not what ships are made for."

Bravo. You've convinced me.
One thing that came out at Question Time tonight (from Cameron's old speech writer) was the speed at which we could operate if we were a free agent. The time it takes for decisions to be made in Brussels and put into action is incredibly restricting. In trade that could be extremely important and a Britain able to act without the shackles of twenty seven other members dithering about is a serious consideration for leaving. We have had the benefit of EU membership for long enough now to have gained any benefit that it had to give. It is now a handicap and we need to move onwards and upwards....with all the speed that independence will provide.

 

[EalingBlue2]

"Immigrant" isn't a race, you know. There are immigrants of every gender, sex, colour, creed, religious background, ethnic background and nationality. Those 'immigrants' who attacked those women in cologne and across Germany are scum. Such a statement is not a sweeping generalisation of any identification.

No one would argue with you but the original scum comment was a blanket comment of immigrant scum coming into steal houses from hard working Tommy's, there was no differentiation it was immigrant scum. I have never heard anyone defending the rapists in Cologne and I doubt anyone would

 

[EalingBlue2]

Good job that EU immigration isn't a factor for me then, isn't it when it comes to voting out.

So there's a moot point. Neither am I an isolationist. No, i'm more the rejection of unelected Commissioners, TTIP, protection of banks, forcing a EU superstate, forcing an EU Army, the failure of the Euro, loss of diversity amongst European nations, EU Flag, cheap labour, rather than where a person comes from. Live and let live. I want Britain to trade not just with the EU, but with the world, unrestricted, negotiating with various regions, actually make our elected politicians and government work for their overinflated wages. Migration helps nations thrive but people also need to understand the negative impact of too much migration. Again, not saying I personally have a problem but I understand the logic behind the concerns of those who do (aside from those who can only see skin colour)

Norway seems to have this same attitude, hence why it doesn't mind accepting EU migration as part of it's continuted trade deals. I'm between an EEA and EFTA arrangement or neither, and creating one that is specific to the UK, just as China, Canada, Mexico, India, Brazil, South Korea, Thailand etc have done. I was once a passionte inner in 2005, during 2006-2009 I began having doubts, then I realised I could no longer defend the direction the EU was heading in. My opinions, views and arguements about leaving the EU have been based on fact checked information, I have had my opinions changed one way and the other many times due to lack of accurate information (from both sides of the argument), hence why i've reached the decision that I have.

I honestly feel the European Union is a relic of the 20th Century and has no place being associated with a modern Britain finding it's feet in the world in the foreseeable future. I'd like to see other European nations follow suit, the European Union dissolve into nothing, the Eurozone breakup and for all European nations reform it from the remains, not from within it's current corrupt, totalitarian state.

There was some good stuff in there and then you ruined it with a lazy Boris johnsonist exaggeration at the end. I think the brexiters should all go and spend a month or two in a totalitarian state to learn what it means tbh

 

[Metal Biker]

No one would argue with you but the original scum comment was a blanket comment of immigrant scum coming into steal houses from hard working Tommy's, there was no differentiation it was immigrant scum. I have never heard anyone defending the rapists in Cologne and I doubt anyone would

Each to their own, but personally I didn't see the original comment to mean what you thought it meant or have the connotations you felt it did.

 

[Metal Biker]

There was some good stuff in there and then you ruined it with a lazy Boris johnsonist exaggeration at the end. I think the brexiters should all go and spend a month or two in a totalitarian state to learn what it means tbh

Not an exaggeration, a feeling I have.

What are my claims to this, what proof can I offer? None, really, just my own gut feeling. Who am I for you or anyone else to trust my gut feeling? Nobody. But I don't claim to be either, however when asked by others how I can hold such a strong opinion on leaving i'd like to think I know enough, from enough research i've collected over the years, to argue my point, and convince others, not to agree with me, but at least accept i'm not misguided in my view or being led to a false conclusion. And by 'totalitatian state', the context of the sentence means 'totalitarian state of being, i.e current situation/stance that the EU seems to be adopting in it's abandonment of the democratic process in how its laws are created, passed and enforced'

You know, like "look at the state of that football, it's falling to pieces!"