EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
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True_Blue69 said:
Sounds like you have some kind of religious chip on your shoulder pal. I said that a terrorist, who was with 2 other terrorists, who blew themselves up has been released back into society. Who cares if they were Muslim, they could have been Martian for all I know / care.
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He wasn't a terrorist, just a Muslim. Due to this they released him back into society, that a problem?
 
Monkfish said:
I wish you would be a smart arse, this is an important vote and you choose which way to vote based on mistaken identity on some crappy cctv?
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To be honest, I am completely 50/50 and to find a reasoned point of view on this is all but impossible, everyone has their own agenda.

This is the exact sort of thing that the EU rule makers have caused, fair enough there is a need for Human Rights etc. but surely there is a time where special dispensation can be granted to hold a suspect for more than the regulated period.
 
True_Blue69 said:
To be honest, I am completely 50/50 and to find a reasoned point of view on this is all but impossible, everyone has their own agenda.

This is the exact sort of thing that the EU rule makers have caused, fair enough there is a need for Human Rights etc. but surely there is a time where special dispensation can be granted to hold a suspect for more than the regulated period.
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They can hold him in custody but as it was nothing to do with him they let him go, it's how we try to roll in Europe and one of the many reasons people from Muslim countries want to live in Europe, don't commit a crime and you don't get put in prison for it.
 
Moriati said:
From John Ward - The Slog -
I must say, I think we of the School Leaver tendency in the Brussels Academy 6th Form have missed a trick thus far on the real trade deficit from which the EU suffers: the War and Peace import/export paradigm.
It’s actually a very simple calculation to make, by asking four questions:
  1. How many wars in Europe have we stopped?
  2. How much war have we imported?
  3. How much war have we started?
  4. How much war have we exported?
The answer to Q 1 is easy: none. After 1949 (when the USSR got its own bomb) war with the Soviets was a non-starter because of mutually assured destruction (MAD), and non-nuclear invasion of Western Europe by the USSR was deterred by the US nuclear presence. Following the Soviet collapse, several wars followed in quick succession as a result: the Yugoslav splintering started the Bosnian War (1992 – 1995). The same cause triggered the Kosovo War (1998-1999), starting a third wave of unrest in Kosovo during 2004 and only ending with an uneasy peace in 2013. NATO and US diplomacy did 95+% of the peace-making: the EU failed to influence any outcomes or stop the conflicts.

Q 2

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/03/27/reason-no-142-for-brexit-the-eu-is-a-war-magnet/
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You can't say that the EU hasn't stopped any wars. Greece, Spain, Portugal could all have descended in to civil war after the fall of their respective dictatorships if they weren't offered a path to EU membership.

The same is true of Czechoslovakia after the fall of Communism.

Can anyone say there would definitely have been wars, no, but the presiding wisdom at the time was that it was a very real possibility in each case. The EU acted to prevent that outcome and the result was peaceful transitions in each country and a peaceful split for the Czechs and Slovaks.
 
blueish swede said:
You can't say that the EU hasn't stopped any wars. Greece, Spain, Portugal could all have descended in to civil war after the fall of their respective dictatorships if they weren't offered a path to EU membership.

The same is true of Czechoslovakia after the fall of Communism.

Can anyone say there would definitely have been wars, no, but the presiding wisdom at the time was that it was a very real possibility in each case. The EU acted to prevent that outcome and the result was peaceful transitions in each country and a peaceful split for the Czechs and Slovaks.
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It is a dreadful article the errors in supposition shocking - wouldn't even make it to Facebook
 
Monkfish said:
They can hold him in custody but as it was nothing to do with him they let him go, it's how we try to roll in Europe and one of the many reasons people from Muslim countries want to live in Europe, don't commit a crime and you don't get put in prison for it.
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I would say either of you making blanket defence or criticisms of the release could be wrong, so I'd be careful being too bombastic either way.

That said it is a fundamental of our society that you can't be held with zero evidence and in a case like this if there is no actual evidence and nothing substantiated then it is a norm of the west that he would be released. Is this mistaken identity, a dodgy tip off that was made up - who knows? I would have thought with technology today if it was the person on CCTV it would be very easy to prove and have enough evidence to hold him?

The acts we have from Europe and indeed that have been enshrined in the sovereign law of most of the west is that you can't just hold people indefinitely with no evidence. That is a value we should fight for.
 
Interestingly, the poll results above which have been fairly consistent have suddenly lurched a % or so towards exit. Maybe too small a sample to be meaningful, or possibly a result of releasing the bloke with the muslamic ray gun in Belgium?
 
I'm still undecided but increasingly concerned about the idea of the Brexiters taking over the government of the country. I'm convinced that the first 5-10 years post Brexit would be bad news, don't believe that it would be a seamingless transition, with one bound being free from the EU yoke but still enjoying all of the trading benefits. However over the longer term, 20 years or so, we might be better off out of a completely dysfunctional structure.

The problem for me is that, if the Brexiters win, the first 5-10 years could be so bad that the UK doesn't recover. I have no love for Cameron, Osborne and co, but the idea of Johnson and the other Brexiters taking control of the Tory party seems to me to be quite scary. Particularly at a time when we do not have an effective opposition. If they do win all of their focus will be on the continuing battle with the EU over the terms of the exit. Which seems increasingly to becoming fixated on the issue of immigration. Would they have the time to run the economy NHS, education etc? I certainly don't think they would have the competence.
 
cibaman said:
I'm still undecided but increasingly concerned about the idea of the Brexiters taking over the government of the country. I'm convinced that the first 5-10 years post Brexit would be bad news, don't believe that it would be a seamingless transition, with one bound being free from the EU yoke but still enjoying all of the trading benefits. However over the longer term, 20 years or so, we might be better off out of a completely dysfunctional structure.

The problem for me is that, if the Brexiters win, the first 5-10 years could be so bad that the UK doesn't recover. I have no love for Cameron, Osborne and co, but the idea of Johnson and the other Brexiters taking control of the Tory party seems to me to be quite scary. Particularly at a time when we do not have an effective opposition. If they do win all of their focus will be on the continuing battle with the EU over the terms of the exit. Which seems increasingly to becoming fixated on the issue of immigration. Would they have the time to run the economy NHS, education etc? I certainly don't think they would have the competence.
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I think the first 5-10 years could be very positive with people sensing that it's one for all and all for one. I'm picturing a real effort to address issues internally and attract tourists and investment to the country. Britain is a trendy place due to music and sport. I could see both being used to pull people together and to ensure that it's not a crazy nationalistic image but a friendly communal one.

The only fear is the crazies who'd try to crash the party.
 
TonyM said:
I think the first 5-10 years could be very positive with people sensing that it's one for all and all for one. I'm picturing a real effort to address issues internally and attract tourists and investment to the country. Britain is a trendy place due to music and sport. I could see both being used to pull people together and to ensure that it's not a crazy nationalistic image but a friendly communal one.

The only fear is the crazies who'd try to crash the party.
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fuck me Tony, that's a stretch of the imagination...
 
I think it's absolutely inevitable whether the vote is yes or no that there will be a realisation in 5 years time that the same problems and issues remain and that nothing has been solved. There will be a realisation that long term decline from being a leading world power, ageing populations, the necessity of immigration are/were problems in or out of Europe that needed solutions a decade ago but that politicians chose the home other factors as all they care about is the next election not the long term good of the country
 
The EU is one big cash grab for the benefit of the few and always has been, it has imposed itself as a middle man and stolen/redirected Billions if not Trillions over the years while producing nothing.
 
hgblue said:
It isn't that I don't care about trade, it's that I simply don't believe the predictions of economic disaster we're hearing. Here's the thing, every statistic I've seen bandied about by the pro EU side strikes me as being highly dubious. 3 million jobs depend on our membership of the EU. Oh really? What does that statistic actually mean? If we leave the EU we will no longer trade with the EU? A country does not have to have a trade agreement with the EU to trade with the EU. In fact the EUs largest international trading partners were China, the US and Russia, none of which have a trade agreement with the EU. We also have a massive trade deficit with the EU and the idea that they would jeopordise these crucial exports to the UK at a time when the Eurozone is in crisis is laughable. Actually less than 15% of our economy and falling, is accounted for by UK exports to the EU, yet 100% of our economy is subject to EU regulation. In terms of trade an EU exit would allow us to reactivate our seat on the WTO, and release our businesses from the burden of EU regulation. All of our trade agreements are currently negotiated by the EU taking into account the interests of 28 seperate and disparate nations, an exit would allow us to negotiate our own trade deals with the best interests of this nation at their heart. But we would lose our ability to influence the EU I hear you cry. Well since records began in 1996 we have tried to block proposals from the EU commission on 72 occasions. Care to hazard a guess how many times we've been successful? Answer starts with a Z and ends with an O.
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So, most of your post here was about trade, yet it you appear to be pretty quick to dismiss it. I guess I just don't understand your angle. I discussed a few of your points in my first post. Go back and re read it. Not because I think I have all the answers, but rather I think the trade side of the argument is hugely skewed from the out campaign (deficit, game theory etc. In particular). The analysis in my original post discusses why it doesn't have to be a sharp decrease in any single countries exports for them to hurt us. For most, its a negligible increase. Factor in their desire to develop their own competencies in certain areas and the punishment doesn't even have to be a loss leader to htme.

As for 3m jobs, maybe it is dubious, but what is the counter argument? None? 1m? I'd be interested to see the assessment (genuine question, as I haven't seen one yet - not saying it doesn't exist).

We can talk all day about regulation, I've yet to see any evidence that the EU is any more bureaucratic or any less undemocratic than our own government. By your own admission, we have the ability to block/veto proposals, and your statistic is a handy soundbite, but it fits an agenda right? How many proposals, trade or otherwise, have we had reformed, blocked etc? Its definitely not zero, and maybe, just maybe, a more engaged set of MEPs would be able to have a more engaged debate within the EU. Even Johnson, with his tea bag example at his car crash treasury select committee, didn't have the right facts.

Anyway, I'm glad at least you do engage in conversation, its an interesting discussion that I don't really have the energy to continue right now, but compared to some of the propoganda filled nonsense that has been on this thread, its good form :-)
 
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