EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
worsleyweb said:
So you didn't answer the question really did you. Could be a politician.
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Yes I did. I can't be held to account for your paucity of ambition.

Our political masters do this, they lower the bar of our expectations all the time, so that problems which could be solved with the political will seem insurmountable.

If you want to see what can be achieved look to wartime, look to the post war Labour government performing huge things when we were utterly broke.

We live in momentous times governed by small men.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Yes I did. I can't be held to account for your paucity of ambition.

Our political masters do this, they lower the bar of our expectations all the time, so that problems which could be solved with the political will seem insurmountable.

If you want to see what can be achieved look to wartime, look to the post war Labour government performing huge things when we were utterly broke.

We live in momentous times governed by small men.
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You didn't answer them adequately and the one you did state yes to in my opinion the answer is no. How can we have adequate control of our borders when we have been unable to get net migration figures down.
 
BigJoe#1 said:
You seem to be a very balanced person Tim and the points made above are valid.

It's a common belief (and correct in my book) that the majority of European Givernmants don't take a blind bit if notice about what the EU tells them to do and carry on in their own sweet way.... but the UK, follow everything to the absolute letter
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Yes there is a wide variation in Countries attitudes to implementation. Some wait until the European Commission launch enforcement measures that can take several years.

I used to meet with a lot of Member States to discuss changes / easements to the European Working time Directive we were seeking.

For example, Spain was slow to implement the Directive (or support our planned. Changes) despite a European court of Justice Judgment "enforcing" more rest breaks and shorter working hours in the case of a Spanish doctor.
 
worsleyweb said:
You didn't answer them adequately and the one you did state yes to in my opinion the answer is no. How can we have adequate control of our borders when we have been unable to get net migration figures down.
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You assume getting net migration figures down is desirable. I don't.

The migration figures will ebb and flow, you can't have a common market with the free flow of goods, services and capital without also having a free flow of labour.

As for schools, hospitals, houses, what's stopping us building them? Absolutely nothing.
 
The perfect fumble said:
You assume getting net migration figures down is desirable. I don't.

The migration figures will ebb and flow, you can't have a common market with the free flow of goods, services and capital without also having a free flow of labour.

As for schools, hospitals, houses, what's stopping us building them? Absolutely nothing.
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Money is stopping us building them. Do you think there is no correlation between the incredible growth in our national debt in the past ten years and the growth in immigration. You will say not but I would strongly disagree. You think 300,000 people coming to this country each year is a good thing? Again I would strongly disagree.
 
worsleyweb said:
Money is stopping us building them. Do you think there is no correlation between the incredible growth in our national debt in the past ten years and the growth in immigration. You will say not but I would strongly disagree. You think 300,000 people coming to this country each year is a good thing? Again I would strongly disagree.
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You can disagree all you like but all the evidence shows that immigrants add to our GDP and do not drain it.

As for "Money is stopping us building them" Oh please, give me a break.

We choose not to build social housing because that distorts the market and the market is god....

"Neoliberalism sees competition as the defining characteristic of human relations. It redefines citizens as consumers, whose democratic choices are best exercised by buying and selling, a process that rewards merit and punishes inefficiency. It maintains that “the market” delivers benefits that could never be achieved by planning.

Attempts to limit competition are treated as inimical to liberty. Tax and regulation should be minimised, public services should be privatised. The organisation of labour and collective bargaining by trade unions are portrayed as market distortions that impede the formation of a natural hierarchy of winners and losers. Inequality is recast as virtuous: a reward for utility and a generator of wealth, which trickles down to enrich everyone. Efforts to create a more equal society are both counterproductive and morally corrosive. The market ensures that everyone gets what they deserve.

We internalise and reproduce its creeds. The rich persuade themselves that they acquired their wealth through merit, ignoring the advantages – such as education, inheritance and class – that may have helped to secure it. The poor begin to blame themselves for their failures, even when they can do little to change their circumstances.

Never mind structural unemployment: if you don’t have a job it’s because you are unenterprising. Never mind the impossible costs of housing: if your credit card is maxed out, you’re feckless and improvident. Never mind that your children no longer have a school playing field: if they get fat, it’s your fault. In a world governed by competition, those who fall behind become defined and self-defined as losers."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

 
The perfect fumble said:
You can disagree all you like but all the evidence shows that immigrants add to our GDP and do not drain it.

As for "Money is stopping us building them" Oh please, give me a break.

We choose not to build social housing because that distorts the market and the market is god....

"Neoliberalism sees competition as the defining characteristic of human relations. It redefines citizens as consumers, whose democratic choices are best exercised by buying and selling, a process that rewards merit and punishes inefficiency. It maintains that “the market” delivers benefits that could never be achieved by planning.

Attempts to limit competition are treated as inimical to liberty. Tax and regulation should be minimised, public services should be privatised. The organisation of labour and collective bargaining by trade unions are portrayed as market distortions that impede the formation of a natural hierarchy of winners and losers. Inequality is recast as virtuous: a reward for utility and a generator of wealth, which trickles down to enrich everyone. Efforts to create a more equal society are both counterproductive and morally corrosive. The market ensures that everyone gets what they deserve.

We internalise and reproduce its creeds. The rich persuade themselves that they acquired their wealth through merit, ignoring the advantages – such as education, inheritance and class – that may have helped to secure it. The poor begin to blame themselves for their failures, even when they can do little to change their circumstances.

Never mind structural unemployment: if you don’t have a job it’s because you are unenterprising. Never mind the impossible costs of housing: if your credit card is maxed out, you’re feckless and improvident. Never mind that your children no longer have a school playing field: if they get fat, it’s your fault. In a world governed by competition, those who fall behind become defined and self-defined as losers."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
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You quote an article from the guardian as an answer. !!! I have given up arguing with left wingers.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Please, do just that.
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Leave.

May I ask why the change are launching a 3 billion pound fund to promote faster build of housing at margins far below those expected of developers in an effort to deliver the housing requirements.

What about the 300 pound Manchester housing fund?

You really haven't a clue mate about the scale of the housing problem - we cannot accommodate 30000 extra people a year. No matter where they are from.
 
worsleyweb said:
Leave.

May I ask why the change are launching a 3 billion pound fund to promote faster build of housing at margins far below those expected of developers in an effort to deliver the housing requirements.

What about the 300 pound Manchester housing fund?

You really haven't a clue mate about the scale of the housing problem - we cannot accommodate 30000 extra people a year. No matter where they are from.
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I could quote an article from the Daily Mail supporting your argument or one from the Guardian that does not.

Which would you prefer?
 
The perfect fumble said:
I could quote an article from the Daily Mail supporting your argument or one from the Guardian that does not.

Which would you prefer?
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I haven't quoted any paper. I speak from experience and know how hard the government are trying to get enough houses built. I really don't get your response again. You seem to speak in left wing riddles.

We are a relatively small country with 60 million people and a housing problem. We desperately need to stem immigration and increase supply of housing to enable people to get onto the property ladder sooner. One of the principle reasons people are having children later is because of the supply and demand issue with housing. Do you think that it is not an issue that the average first time buyer is now well into his 30s?
 
BlueBearBoots said:
Sorry f this has already been addressed but what happens to the 800,000 expats living in Soain if we vote brexit?
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Absolutely nothing. The Spanish aren't going to boot them all out when the vast majority are bringing money into the country and spending it there. The property market is already oversupplied and would collapse completely if nearly a million people upped sticks.
 
TonyM said:
Ireland is far from thriving. We've painted a picture to seem like we are so the EU would give us top marks but we are in a terrible state behind the scenes. Homelessness is rife, crime is rife, health is a shambles, housing is a disaster, no infrastructure projects, utilities falling to bits. The EU forced us to save banks that should have gone to the wall. People can talk about the disaster that would have been the alternative but it'd have been far better for us. My faith in the EU is completely shot and I was a big supporter to begin with. I'd have Ireland out tomorrow if I had a choice even if it meant my job disappearing and having to find something else. In the long run it'd be better for my kids I believe. As it is they'll be paying back these debts and probably more to come a the EU fuck up more and more. The mainlanders will never understand Irish people or culture and they like us. They don't even like ye :-) so ye'll be fucked.
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Please don't write anything like that on this forum as some posters will spend half an hour trying to

A) convince you that you have imagined your experience
B) convince you that you are not really here
C) you're a racist for suggesting the eu could ever impose such a scenario on a club member
 
sir baconface said:
This business about going into the unknown... There is some truth in it but I'd liken it to an unhappy marriage. Breaking up raises the spectre of financial worries and hardship but, if pushed hard enough, you have to take that step. And in many cases it works out for the best.
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It's like breaking up with the mrs when your marriage is going reasonably well because the strange man down the pub has convinced you that if you do you'll get a hot intelligent millionaire babe within days
 
EalingBlue2 said:
It's like breaking up with the mrs when your marriage is going reasonably well because the strange man down the pub has convinced you that if you do you'll get a hot intelligent millionaire babe within days
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When you live thousands of miles away it is hard to tell how the marriage is going.
 
west didsblue said:
Absolutely nothing. The Spanish aren't going to boot them all out when the vast majority are bringing money into the country and spending it there. The property market is already oversupplied and would collapse completely if nearly a million people upped sticks.
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The spaniards will cherry pick and keep those to their advantage as try to move those on who are not. But that could change if a more nationalist government got in , in parts of Spain it could be a very populist move, moving on Brits
 
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