EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

That's a good point. I just worry what they'll do in the short term while they can. If the NHS was completely privatised, I can't see the option of overturning that being easy at all and very unlikely to happen.

I guess I'm just completely unsure which side I can trust if any. I've never taken an interest in politics, but after this last Tory election I know we need them out - I can't be doing with anyone who are so blatantly out for themselves and theirs rather than looking after the whole population. Obviously this referendum is a big deal so have tried putting more effort into trying to find the right decision.

EDIT: After reading about TTIP I'm voting OUT definitely. Fuck that. I've always had the impression Cameron is hiding something and him and Osbourne are puppets of corporations like Virgin wanting more and more and more, sacrificing the health and financial well being of the population. All about removing "barriers" such as reducing food safety rules to expand profit margins - fuck that!

I think Brexit is definitely the far lesser of the two evils. At least their campaign is promoting pumping money back into the NHS (the EU money) which suggests they're more likely to prevent privatisation.

TTIP is far more likely and relevant out than in and out ability to negotiate will be significantly weaker. The argument for Brexit is that Britain can become more like the big global none European economies all who are signing up to TPP deals - even China is moving towards them.

So if you think The reason to vote Brexit is to avoid trade deals with the rest of the world you are really missing the whole Brexit argument.

The only question is if you want TTIP on European or US terms

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Before she'd even died from her injuries remain supporters were using it as political capital against the leave campaign all over social media, the Guardian even had an editorial dragging Farage into a matter of hours later, so don't get all high and mighty here mate, it's highly transparent.

Her murder was used as political capital, that's fairly obvious. It even happened on this sub.

Her murder was a tragedy and no-one is supportive of the lunatic who took her life.

Now, with that said. Can we keep this thread on topic please? This thread is about discussing the pros and cons of leaving or remaining within the EU. There's a seperate thread for that very topic. Let's not have this thread descend into points scoring as we've seen before when that has come up.

You mean the reports that people had heard him saying something about Britain First then the guy went into court and called himself "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain", having murdered a MP who did a lot of work with immigrants and ethnic minorities, is called political capital? Political capital, in your world it maybe called, a spot on connection is what it is called in my world. It must be very uncomfortable for the exit camp that papers were showing day after day scare stories about immigration and that morning, just coincidentally, Farage was gurning below a poster that looked like a poster from Nazi Germany however, someone was going to snap. It was him. It is a reality that needs to be dealt with by those responsible for those tactics within the exit camp. Trying to fob it off as a false flag or political capital is pretty poor imho. The fact that Arron Banks was worried enough to see how it affected polls shows that the connection has not gone unnoticed an exit funder.
It is on topic and it is an influence, to a varying degree, on how people will vote.
I have made my point, you can agree or disagree, up to you.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

TTIP is far more likely and relevant out than in and out ability to negotiate will be significantly weaker. The argument for Brexit is that Britain can become more like the big global none European economies all who are signing up to TPP deals - even China is moving towards them.

So if you think The reason to vote Brexit is to avoid trade deals with the rest of the world you are really missing the whole Brexit argument.

The only question is if you want TTIP on European or US terms

No, that's really not a fair representation, at all mate.

The EU are negotiating in secret and any trade deal will be on their terms.

There is absolutely no basis for you to say that we'd be more likely to sign a TTIP type trade deal out of the EU than in.

Fundamentally, we'd be able to choose a party or candidate post Brexit that would have policies congruent with protecting the NHS, and signing trade deals that are not equivalents of the TTIP deal.

In the EU we're completely at the mercy of people that are not accountable to us. It's that straightforward.

TTIP is a guarantee if we remain in the EU. Just a question of when, not if.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

I was the same, changed my mind to IN until I found out about TTIP.

I'd highly advise anyone on the fence (and INers) to read this that don't know about it. Totally made my mind up on OUT because of this:

http://waronwant.org/what-ttip

...and my gut feeling I've had from the behaviour of Cameron and Osbourne they're hiding something and in the pockets of corporations wanting to enforce this. Of course they have all the "experts" paid up scaremongering too.

Absolutely no way i'm voting in!

TTIP is just one of two major trade deals flying about.
You are right about Cameron and Gidiot, of course they will bend to the corporations and will do their masters's bidding.
Voting out will hand TTIP on a plate to them or a worse trade agreement as the US would look to hammer us. At least in Europe there are numerous people working against it and France have come out saying they are against it.
Of the two options, In is the greater chance of avoiding it.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

You mean the reports that people had heard him saying something about Britain First then the guy went into court and called himself "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain", having murdered a MP who did a lot of work with immigrants and ethnic minorities, is called political capital? Political capital, in your world it maybe called, a spot on connection is what it is called in my world. It must be very uncomfortable for the exit camp that papers were showing day after day scare stories about immigration and that morning, just coincidentally, Farage was gurning below a poster that looked like a poster from Nazi Germany however, someone was going to snap. It was him. It is a reality that needs to be dealt with by those responsible for those tactics within the exit camp. Trying to fob it off as a false flag or political capital is pretty poor imho. The fact that Arron Banks was worried enough to see how it affected polls shows that the connection has not gone unnoticed an exit funder.
It is on topic and it is an influence, to a varying degree, on how people will vote.
I have made my point, you can agree or disagree, up to you.

I literally spoke with another poster here who held their hands up and said they were using it as political capital.

Look, mate, I'm not interested in this discussion. This debate is bigger than this kind of point scoring, and frankly, it's beneath contempt. Whoever is doing it.

I want to talk about policies, the economy, tangible things that affect the future of this country, not who said what. Can we agree that this is more pertinent to this thread?

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

TTIP is just one of two major trade deals flying about.
You are right about Cameron and Gidiot, of course they will bend to the corporations and will do their masters's bidding.
Voting out will hand TTIP on a plate to them or a worse trade agreement as the US would look to hammer us. At least in Europe there are numerous people working against it and France have come out saying they are against it.
Of the two options, In is the greater chance of avoiding it.

Don't agree, at all. Pure speculation. In fact it's deliberately misleading.

We know the likelihood of TTIP facing the EU at present, and there is no basis, at all, for you to say it'd be the safer option to remain in the EU with that great probability - than secure the out vote and having it being one of many issues put to our own electorate in a general election.

That, is democracy.

It will be out of our hands if we vote to remain part of the EU.

 

[EalingBlue2]

No, that's really not a fair representation, at all mate.

The EU are negotiating in secret and any trade deal will be on their terms.

There is absolutely no basis for you to say that we'd be more likely to sign a TTIP type trade deal out of the EU than in.

Fundamentally, we'd be able to choose a party or candidate post Brexit that would have policies congruent with protecting the NHS, and signing trade deals that are not equivalents of the TTIP deal.

In the EU we're completely at the mercy of people that are not accountable to us. It's that straightforward.

TTIP is a guarantee if we remain in the EU. Just a question of when, not if.

TTIP will be with us sooner and on less favourable terms without the EU. It is a question of when not if regardless , if you think the UK can go it alone without North America, Europe and the Pacific you are to put it bluntly radical and not in a good way.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

TTIP will be with us sooner and on less favourable terms without the EU. It is a question of when not if regardless , if you think the UK can go it alone without North America, Europe and the Pacific you are to put it bluntly radical and not in a good way.

I don't agree, at all.

And you're entirely missing the point and going for the usual ad hominems.

We're not going to go it alone, of course. We will have to sign new trade deals out of the EU, that is a given. But they needn't be as detrimental to services like the NHS and so beneficial to corporate entities as per the current TTIP deal being thrashed out in Brussels for the EU.

It's a false equation, and once more, scaremongering.

You're advocating staying within the EU on the basis of being more or less guaranteed TTIP, and hoping that people who don't answer to our electorate will do what's best for the NHS. It makes no sense.

The alternative is to have alternative trade deals to the likes of the TTIP being negotiated by people that answer to our electorate, people that'll we'll be placing into office.

That, is the best way to ensure we get a fair deal, and ensure the future of the NHS.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I've tried to vote the Tories out but, unfortunately, I can't do it on my own. They have a hardcore base of support that doesn't care about workers rights because they don't have an invested interest in it. They get into power because we don't have PR.
As for being hijacked by the far right, have you seen or even witnessed how subtle it is? Many people that I know, particularly the over 60's, would class themselves as traditional labour voters. Yet they manage to spout the vitriol that the far right espouse. This is why UKIP got millions of votes at the last GE.

You also have an opposition that has been crap for years. They need to get themselves sorted to provide a viable alternative. You cant blame the Conservatives for that. A credible opposition would walk the next election if you ask me.

 

[cibaman]

What's more, we'll likely spend circa two years negotiating our exit from the EU, and the EU has a specific charter to enable and legislate for the negotiation of an exit member state - precisely so that the economy of the leaving nation, and the EU itself, does not take a hit from the separation. To limit the acrimony and make it as smooth as possible.

Didn't Johnson & Gove say they would immediately introduce measures such as scrapping VAT on fuel, which are against EU rules?

Doesn't the two year negotiation period only work smoothly if we abide by EU rules during that period?

 

[BigJoe#1]

The thin edge of the wedge my friends, the thin end of the wedge I'm telling you...

Anibal Cavaco Silva, Portugal’s constitutional president, has refused to appoint a Left-wing coalition government even though it secured an absolute majority in the Portuguese parliament and won a mandate to smash the austerity regime bequeathed by the EU-IMF Troika.

• Indebted Portugal is still the problem child of the eurozone

He deemed it too risky to let the Left Bloc or the Communists come close to power, insisting that conservatives should soldier on as a minority in order to satisfy Brussels and appease foreign financial markets.

The article in full....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...rtugals-anti-euro-Left-banned-from-power.html

Where ere will it all end?

 

[mcfc1632]

Give it a rest pam. Ruining a decent thread.

I would echo this. Playing catch-up which I do most days - but an enjoyable thread is now being vandalised - why?

 

[mcfc1632]

Rights available? ...just saying

And your endless tirade of cartoons is very tiresome

For you perhaps

 

[mcfc1632]

Merkel was naive, though I will give her some credit for trying to something, but this was not the eu either. As for the austerity yes, but would you have done anything different? Obviously the issues were primarily with the Greeks being allowed in when they clearly didn't meet the requirements for membership of the single currency, but given that is it the best outcome of a bad job?

but we have been assured that in no area will the EU allow any compromise in meeting criteria just for the sale expediency and the desire to expand - we can have confidence for the next 30/40/50 years surely

 

[tago_mago]

TTIP is just one of two major trade deals flying about.
You are right about Cameron and Gidiot, of course they will bend to the corporations and will do their masters's bidding.
Voting out will hand TTIP on a plate to them or a worse trade agreement as the US would look to hammer us. At least in Europe there are numerous people working against it and France have come out saying they are against it.
Of the two options, In is the greater chance of avoiding it.

This. The whole point of having nations working together is that there is a veto. Huge amounts of documentation are public - a Tory Government would never do that - and the US couldn't care less about a comparatively tiny nation with whom it does little by way of trade.

 

[Monkfish]

For you perhaps

Want cartoons read the Beano, the grown ups will tell you of their decision on Friday

 

[Monkfish]

The thin edge of the wedge my friends, the thin end of the wedge I'm telling you...

Anibal Cavaco Silva, Portugal’s constitutional president, has refused to appoint a Left-wing coalition government even though it secured an absolute majority in the Portuguese parliament and won a mandate to smash the austerity regime bequeathed by the EU-IMF Troika.

• Indebted Portugal is still the problem child of the eurozone

He deemed it too risky to let the Left Bloc or the Communists come close to power, insisting that conservatives should soldier on as a minority in order to satisfy Brussels and appease foreign financial markets.

The article in full....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...rtugals-anti-euro-Left-banned-from-power.html

Where ere will it all end?

Dunno beejay, maybe here?
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-austerity-coup-portugal-elections-eu-brexit

 

[mcfc1632]

I've been OUT for the month I've been considering it so far. As of recent, I just feel we're being played by the BREXIT campaign - false hopes, easy to get a large proportion of the nation on side through things like immigration and other false promises.

They don't give up power like that. 2 sects of elite playing off against each other is all it comes down to for me now, besides what i'm sure will prove to be superficial stuff.

I can think of many reasons to vote out - but what I think that seems to be being missed is that there is at this point there is no certainty of where a 'leave' decision will take us. This is leaped upon by the Remain campaign to scare the populace - when in fact people should not be surprised.

The Leave campaign is just that a referendum campaign they are not a government - this Conservative government should have been doing its job and (objectively and accurately) starting the planning of what they would do if instructed by the citizens of this country to manage an exit - but the self-interests of individuals have been shamelessly given priority and after all bringing forward planning does not suit the agenda.

But as people seem to crave certainty - what does seem to be certain is the EU is going to stagnate - the Eurozone is going to bomb and take all of us down with it (whether in the Eurozone or not).

Given those (IMO) certainties I would rather choose to 'get off the bus' and carefully consider my direction and plans than to lemming like hurtle to the precipice.

As mentioned previously - in making a Titanic comparison - of course the survivors sitting in the lifeboats faced an uncertain future but surely that was a preferable place to be when listening to the band playing.....? People do still seem to have this '...she's to big to sink..' mind-set - IMO lemmings that will unfortunately condemn us all.

 

[Monkfish]

But as people seem to crave certainty - what does seem to be certain is the EU is going to stagnate - the Eurozone is going to bomb and take all of us down with it (whether in or not).

No certainty there, it's gone from stagnation to bombing and taking all of us down in the very same sentence. Do we get a choice of the bomb or stagnation?

 

[mcfc1632]

Can sense after events of last weeks tragic event the campaign & their scare tactics will just about edge it. Pretty disgusting if you ask me using this MP's death to fuel their agenda. I've seen a handful of people on Twitter put the blame Farage for the actions of one mentally unstable individual. You might think he's a knob but that's completely uncalled for.

Hopefully it'll be a historic day on 23rd July and we'll have the balls to vote leave. We're stuck in a rut if we decide to stay in the EU. Think its bad now...it's only going to get worse. Vote OUT.

yes sickening - chuka umunna yesterday when being interviewed ahead of parliament sitting - emphasising how all must focus on the loss to family and friends and not use the tragedy for political gain............. immediately followed by - but lets remember what she stood for, Jo was a REMAIN supporter, a passionate campaigner.......etc.