Fabinho

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Hmmm...
No fast, powerful world class DM = Struggle to win the title or other trophies.
We will still concede a stack of goals on the counter (especially against the better teams) though, without Bravo as first choice, not one every time our DM is bypassed resulting in a shot that Bravo waves at, as it flies into the net.
 
Andrew___K said:
Have to add that Gundogan isn't a good wavebreaker. Having fit Gundogan Pep still played Dinho, Yaya or even Fernando as a pivot. You may see Gundogan as a best option, but Pep prefers those 3 over him. I don't doubt your knowledge, I'm just saying that Tuchel's and Guardiola's opinion is slightly different to yours.
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Again... why is it that Gundogan is not a good 'wavebreaker'? I don't see any evidence where this is true at all.

And I think you got it backwards when you said Pep preferred Dinho, Yaya, or Fernando (lol) over Gundogan when he's fit. It is not that Gundogan can't play the pivot but it's that Dinho and Fernando cannot play attacking midfielder. And like you said, Gundogan not playing up front would be a waste of his skill, but then again that's not the point here. The notion that Gundogan is not capable of playing pivot and that Dinho is a better pivot is just wrong. Are you really saying that Dinho is a better dribbler and passer under pressure than Gundogan? Dinho playing the pivot was not because Gundogan not being able to play there, it is because Pep wants to fit in our best players in the XI and if you want to put Dinho there you gotta put him at the DM position. Or maybe you fancy having Dinho play behind the striker?
 
mavsmcfc said:
Again... why is it that Gundogan is not a good 'wavebreaker'? I don't see any evidence where this is true at all.

And I think you got it backwards when you said Pep preferred Dinho, Yaya, or Fernando (lol) over Gundogan when he's fit. It is not that Gundogan can't play the pivot but it's that Dinho and Fernando cannot play attacking midfielder. And like you said, Gundogan not playing up front would be a waste of his skill, but then again that's not the point here. The notion that Gundogan is not capable of playing pivot and that Dinho is a better pivot is just wrong. Are you really saying that Dinho is a better dribbler and passer under pressure than Gundogan? Dinho playing the pivot was not because Gundogan not being able to play there, it is because Pep wants to fit in our best players in the XI and if you want to put Dinho there you gotta put him at the DM position. Or maybe you fancy having Dinho play behind the striker?
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This doesn't explain Pep shifting KDB wide right just to fit Gundogan in, when he could've easily placed him at #6 over Fernandinho.
 
FrancisMCFC said:
This doesn't explain Pep shifting KDB wide right just to fit Gundogan in, when he could've easily placed him at #6 over Fernandinho.
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That does explain it. At that point Sane was still not playing well or playing at all, therefore Dinho was one of our best XI players. If you put Gundogan as #6 it means taking out Dinho and playing someone else that's worse than him (like Navas).

For the no.8 position there's only 2 position while we have 3 players there - KDB, Silva, and Gundogan. KDB placed on the wings is not because KDB can't play through the middle, it's just that he was the best out of the 3 playing as a winger. Gundogan absolutely cannot be played on the wings. Silva has no pace whatsoever to be a winger, therefore KDB it is.

If Pep really wanted to play Gundogan, Silva, and KDB at their best position, he would've started Gundogan at the 6 and Silva KDB at the 8. But that would mean taking out Dinho and replacing him with Navas, which I don't think he wanted to do. He tried so hard to fit in all our top XI players.
 
mavsmcfc said:
Again... why is it that Gundogan is not a good 'wavebreaker'? I don't see any evidence where this is true at all.

And I think you got it backwards when you said Pep preferred Dinho, Yaya, or Fernando (lol) over Gundogan when he's fit. It is not that Gundogan can't play the pivot but it's that Dinho and Fernando cannot play attacking midfielder. And like you said, Gundogan not playing up front would be a waste of his skill, but then again that's not the point here. The notion that Gundogan is not capable of playing pivot and that Dinho is a better pivot is just wrong. Are you really saying that Dinho is a better dribbler and passer under pressure than Gundogan? Dinho playing the pivot was not because Gundogan not being able to play there, it is because Pep wants to fit in our best players in the XI and if you want to put Dinho there you gotta put him at the DM position. Or maybe you fancy having Dinho play behind the striker?
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Your assessment of 6 as a best role for Gundogan is a pure speculation mate as he's never played that position (at least I don't know any particular game, name it please). You have to understand that you're simply calling Tuchel and Pep idiots as they don't know what player fits which position. Coaches don't shoehorn players into starting 11, they choose what's best for the team as a whole to make system work.
 
mavsmcfc said:
I don't why but everytime I look at Paredes it looks like Aleix Garcia with more games and without the timidness.

Marcos Llorente on the other hand is just great. Him or Weigl I'd take both.
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Well, that's good praise for Garcia.
Llorente in my view is the best fit, but there is that 'Real Madrid" problem. I'm not as high on Wiegl as most are, thought he had a good 1st season but has been quite basic this season... Paredes is a happy medium for me.
 
Andrew___K said:
Your assessment of 6 as a best role for Gundogan is a pure speculation mate as he's never played that position (at least I don't know any particular game, name it please). You have to understand that you're simply calling Tuchel and Pep idiots as they don't know what player fits which position. Coaches don't shoehorn players into starting 11, they choose what's best for the team as a whole to make system work.
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That bolded part is the fundamental mistake with your argument. According to you Gundogan never played there therefore he is unable to play there, that's pure speculation. It's just as much as a speculation of me saying that Gundogan can be the pivot. So why is yours valid and mine isn't?

Gundogan himself said his position is a mix between a 6 and an 8.



But no Gundogan mate you're not a 6 because Andrew said so.
 
mavsmcfc said:
That bolded part is the fundamental mistake with your argument. According to you Gundogan never played there therefore he is unable to play there, that's pure speculation. It's just as much as a speculation of me saying that Gundogan can be the pivot. So why is yours valid and mine isn't?

Gundogan himself said his position is a mix between a 6 and an 8.



But no Gundogan mate you're not a 6 because Andrew said so.
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Deep-lying 8 can be described as a mix between 6 and 8, Xavi-style, don't see any contradiction :) You still haven't named a single game where IG played as a pivot. Name it, then we can argue.
 
Andrew___K said:
Deep-lying 8 can be described as a mix between 6 and 8, Xavi-style, don't see any contradiction :) You still haven't named a single game where IG played as a pivot. Name it, then we can argue.
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So you are saying that someone like Xavi, with the amount of skill that he has, is incapable of playing the pivot? lol.
Like I said before Gundogan doesn't play there because of the need to fit in Dinho. Had Sane been fit/in form since the beginning of the season Dinho would likely not start. The starting formation would've been:
Sagna Stones Otamendi Kolarov
Gundogan
Silva KDB
Sterling Aguero Sane

And again, according to your 'definition' of a pivot:
1. sits in front of the defence. Gundogan can do this.
2. acts like a wavebreaker and distributes the ball to beat the first layer of press. Gundogan can do this. What is your evidence for stating Gundogan cannot make a pass to beat a press?
3. mostly using simple, low-risk passes. Gundogan can do this.
 
mavsmcfc said:
So you are saying that someone like Xavi, with the amount of skill that he has, is incapable of playing the pivot? lol.
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Xavi? No, he can't. Barca under Pep never used Xavi as pivot, only big guys like Yaya, Busi or (if both were unavailable) Keita, rarely Mascherano. The reason is obvious - pivot needs to have some defensive tenacity and physical power to avoid being outmuscled. Besides, if both 8s are small technicians, you also need an aerial ability from your 6. In Lahm's case height wasn't a problem as Bayern had Schweini and Kroos as 8s.
 
Andrew___K said:
Xavi? No, he can't. Barca under Pep never used Xavi as pivot, only big guys like Yaya, Busi or (if both were unavailable) Keita, rarely Mascherano. The reason is obvious - pivot needs to have some defensive tenacity and physical power to avoid being outmuscled. Besides, if both 8s are small technicians, you also need an aerial ability from your 6. In Lahm's case height wasn't a problem as Bayern had Schweini and Kroos as 8s.
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This notion from you that only some type of Unicorns can play as the pivot for Pep is such bullshit. Even KDB played pivot and according to you KDB is even less 'press-resistant'. How is it that Pep put KDB as pivot and yet everybody knows that's not even his best position and Gundogan plays better there??

And again idk how many times to tell you if Gundogan play as 6 with Dinho in the team, it would mean Dinho would play as an attacking midfielder. What kind of madness would that be.
 
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Andrew___K said:
In what game? Name it, please. Not BS from whoscored, name a particular game. I suspect you're struggling to grasp the concept of a sole pivot as it is.
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Monaco away second half. Get off your high horse mate and take your fake juego de posicion diploma from cruyff university somewhere else.
 
mavsmcfc said:
Monaco away second half. Get off your high horse mate and take your fake juego de posicion diploma from cruyff university somewhere else.
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He was withdrawn deeper in 2nd half and played as DLP alongside Dinho, the pivot. I don't even see any point to argue. The same was in the next game vs Arsenal as I remember.
Attacking the poster when running out of arguments is hardly an intelligent behavior. I'm sorry, I can't help you.
 
Andrew___K said:
He was withdrawn deeper in 2nd half and played as DLP alongside Dinho, the pivot. I don't even see any point to argue. The same was in the next game vs Arsenal as I remember.
Attacking the poster when running out of arguments is hardly an intelligent behavior. I'm sorry, I can't help you.
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Nope Dinho was in front of him. KDB was in between the defender and Silva/Dinho. KDB was the pivot, maybe you should check your definition instead. Speaking of attacking - "I suspect you're struggling to grasp the concept of a sole pivot as it is." Calling me a stupid isn't really an intelligent behavior mate.
 
mavsmcfc said:
Nope Dinho was in front of him. KDB was in between the defender and Silva/Dinho. KDB was the pivot, maybe you should check your definition instead. Speaking of attacking - "I suspect you're struggling to grasp the concept of a sole pivot as it is." Calling me a stupid isn't really an intelligent behavior mate.
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Ok, peace. Next season will give even more reasons to argue with B.Silva's signature :)
 
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