For those who think National Healthcare is a bad idea...

[ChicagoBlue]

Health insurance ought to be a right; provided, for free by the government.

There is no such thing as “free,” and someone has to pay.

Once you understand this, the questions become: Who and how?

To me, I believe basic healthcare is a right, but that needs to be paid for by someone.

Should that be a burden paid by all through taxes or at “point of sale” via direct payment or as part of a pooled insurance plan?

If the former, under the progressive taxation system, the healthcare burden becomes yet another “paid by those who are successful” program.

If at “point of sale,” the burden could create the choice of “healthcare or food,” which seems like a Hobson’s Choice.

If through an insurance pool, then the questions become how much is enough coverage, at what cost, to whom, and is there a profit motive?

Different places have different systems. Democracies have decided on their choice of program. If the program isn’t working for some, do they have the power to change the system chosen by their democracy or do they simply have to suffer the consequences created for them by the majority?

These are basic questions about the organization of states that can feel intractable once enacted, especially when interests become entrenched and the division of equity begins to build fiefdoms that seem to require protecting.

It is a difficult problem with difficult solutions, which many sides to the proverbial coin.

I’ve yet to find an active, vocal democracy that feels their healthcare is high quality, affordable for all, and well-funded.

Point one out and we may have found a solution to healthcare in a world where the real problem of “nothing in life is free, not even the air you breathe or the water you drink!” applies to everything beyond that, too!

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

France?

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Sadly no longer true.
Twenty years ago maybe.
The French system is under similar pressures to ours.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

The issue with the British National Health Service is that it is “socialized medicine” in American terms, and is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the “Healthcare for all” mantra in many other countries.

When the Hospitals & Doctors & Nurses all work for (and are employed & paid by) the Govt, that’s a different kettle of fish from COVERAGE FOR ALL in an incentive-based system of independent or conglomerated medical setting.

Sometimes, the issues Bro g discussed SOUND similar, but are far different in reality.

No U.K. GP is employed by the U.K. govt.
They are all self employed contractors.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

No U.K. GP is employed by the U.K. govt.
They are all self employed contractors.

Who pays them?

 

[hilts]

I guess it is from those who have come under from the cradle to the grave welfare system. They should try living without this wonderful system and then come back and share their experiences after they have had a bad health issue I can tell you from personal experience the NHS with all its doubts gives a wonderful service

No it comes from those who support the NHS(so do I) but to defend it they slate the worst system they can come up with ie the USA. Basically side picking nonsense that infects the board.

 

[Octavian]

So treasured the Government is privatising it. The legislation is now passing through Parliament that will absolve the government from providing free healthcare for all and will split the country into 46 areas run largely by American health companies with their own ideas on what should be provided after their budget for the year has been decided.

Have a good, close look at the Care and Health Bill passing through parliament at the moment if you think the NHS is safe?

It's one of the strange conflicts of interests that took place in the run up to the brexit referendum with their big red bus wandering around the country with £350M a week to the NHS plastered on the side.

Nothing could be further from the truth, as free healthcare for all was mandated with our membership of the EU, and now we are out, the tories can finally realise their lifelong ambition of getting rid of it.

Sorry to piss on your chips, but you have no idea what is going on and the tories haven't wasted any time introducing the legislation that will rid the taxpayer of paying for free healthcare.

What are you on about? Where in my post did I mention Brexit, the Tories or what’s happening to the NHS. I just said it’s “treasured”, as in it’s treasured to me.

 

[JRockBlues]

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

@ChicagoBlue
COVID vaccination in the USA is "free" - not actually, literally free, as you point out - but free in the sense that everyone eligible for vaccination can get a shot and will not be charged for it (yes nothing is free and someone pays the bill).

It's in the COVID-vaccination sense of "free" that I very much favor a "free" health care system.

We can get bogged down into orthogonal issues about who pays for health care and the quality of service provided - but that's missing my key point, which is this: health care ought to be a right and everyone ought to be provided with it (but if we insist on identifying who should pay for health care - then I'd say that, since everyone is entitled to health care in proportion to their needs, then everyone ought to pay for healthcare in proportion to their means).

True story... A few years ago while working in my condo, I stubbed my toe against my tool box (I was working barefoot). Blood started gushing from the wound and it was clear that I ought to seek immediate help.

I went to the local hospital emergency room and after a bit of a wait (this was before COVID) I was seen by a doctor. Although I thought I'd need stiches - it turned out that some sort of band aide they had would suffice. But hold on, they weren't finished. They wanted to wheel in a portable x-ray machine to check for a stress fracture. I questioned the need for x-rays.

At least the attending physician was honest - he basically admitted that the x-ray was almost certainly unnecessary (and by inference, though he did not say this, that it was a way to pad the total bill for the benefit of the hospital).

Take away what you will from the story above - my takeaway is that a major defect in the US health care system is that we've set up health care as if it were a free market subject to competition: don't like your health care - go elsewhere. Except that this isn't at all the way it works. Your toe is bleeding profusely so you go to the nearest hospital. There's zero free market competition at play.

Yes, insurance companies will challenge billing - but the game is still on. Pad bills as much as you can and hopefully some of the excess charges will stick.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

@ChicagoBlue
COVID vaccination in the USA is "free" - not actually, literally free, as you point out - but free in the sense that everyone eligible for vaccination can get a shot and will not be charged for it (yes nothing is free and someone pays the bill).

It's in the COVID-vaccination sense of "free" that I very much favor a "free" health care system.

We can get bogged down into orthogonal issues about who pays for health care and the quality of service provided - but that's missing my key point, which is this: health care ought to be a right and everyone ought to be provided with it (but if we insist on identifying who should pay for health care - then I'd say that, since everyone is entitled to health care in proportion to their needs, then everyone ought to pay for healthcare in proportion to their means).

True story... A few years ago while working in my condo, I stubbed my toe against my tool box (I was working barefoot). Blood started gushing from the wound and it was clear that I ought to seek immediate help.

I went to the local hospital emergency room and after a bit of a wait (this was before COVID) I was seen by a doctor. Although I thought I'd need stiches - it turned out that some sort of band aide they had would suffice. But hold on, they weren't finished. They wanted to wheel in a portable x-ray machine to check for a stress fracture. I questioned the need for x-rays.

At least the attending physician was honest - he basically admitted that the x-ray was almost certainly unnecessary (and by inference, though he did not say this, that it was a way to pad the total bill for the benefit of the hospital).

Take away what you will from the story above - my takeaway is that a major defect in the US health care system is that we've set up health care as if it were a free market subject to competition: don't like your health care - go elsewhere. Except that this isn't at all the way it works. Your toe is bleeding profusely so you go to the nearest hospital. There's zero free market competition at play.

Yes, insurance companies will challenge billing - but the game is still on. Pad bills as much as you can and hopefully some of the excess charges will stick.

That’s a different thing, IMHO.

What you’re talking about is “For Profit” healthcare, and I agree…it is broken!

The good thing, though, is that most insurance plans have agreements as to what they will pay for treatments.

As you know, you see a “bill” for $2,000 from the hospital went to your Healthcare Insurance Co., they removed a bunch of charges they and the provider have agreed are NOT applicable to them, then they look at your deductible.

Let’s say the $2,000 turns into $1,000. Then, we go down 2 paths:

1) Insurer says your deductible is $1,000 or higher and has NOT been met, so you owe the $1,000 and it is applied towards the deductible.

2) Insurer says your deductible has been met, so you owe “only” your portion of the $1,000 that is agreed in your Health Care Policy (usually 20%), so you owe the Provider $200!

The questions are:

How much did the actual care cost?

How much does the middleman insurer make on this deal?

Why can an insurer remove significant sums from the providers bill, but someone WITHOUT insurance would be responsible for the FULL $2,000, rather than a percentage of only $1,000?

Certainly, medical care is not considered a “right” in the U.S., but anyone can walk into an ER and get the care they need. From there, the problems can sometimes begin.

There is MUCH wrong with American healthcare, but I’d much rather get really sick in America than the UK!