General Election - December 12th, 2019

[BobKowalski]

The ERG are wankers but there have been opportunities to get it through since and 3 times it was voted down

The impasse is down to all sides

Look if the people who actually wanted to leave the EU can’t bring themselves to vote for a legal and orderly exit from the EU you are hardly going to persuade others who have grave doubts about the whole sorry affair. In the main Tory MPs did vote for it and most of them were remain MPs. Labour had no real issue with the WA itself but did object to the Political Declaration which could have been resolved if this minority Govt has shown some real faith in cross party talks and hadn’t waited until one minute to midnight to initiate the talks.

But they didn’t show faith and did wait until the last minute so here we are.

 

[Hesperus]

It’s pretty clear, given the latest polling that even with an election, no party will have enough of a majority to push through legislation and certainly not a way forward on Brexit. So we’ll have another hung parliament and be back to square one.

 

[Rascal]

So did you abstain in the EU Referendum vote? Not a trick question by the way. I'm guessing you voted Leave but could be wrong

The current impasse is clearly not just on the Labour Party but those complaining about us careering towards No Deal need to look at our MPs and how they voted on the one and only deal that was on the table. Granted May's deal was far from perfect (are we ever going to get a perfect deal?), but given the choice again between that and the looming possibility of No Deal, maybe some would've voted differently?

I abstained for three reasons. The main reason was I do not think direct democracy is suitable in a country with no constitutional provision for one and secondly if I had to vote I would have liked the option for a fully Federal Europe to be on the ballot paper, thirdly as that was not on the ballot paper and I believed remain was the status quo which was untenable I would have voted leave but could not in any circumstances vote for anything associated with that disgusting **** Farage.

I went to the polling station as I do believe people should vote and wrote "get fucked" on the ballot paper

 

[Chippy_boy]

It’s possible that Johnson could pull a rabbit out of the hat, unite the 43%+ that still want to leave and gain a majority.

More likely is that it will be a hung parliament, with Labour trying to go it alone as a minority government. The Lib Dem’s and SNP will probably do very well and will have no incentive to force a 2nd election so will allow Corbyn at least a few months as PM. But the Lib Dem’s 2015 wipe out will mean that neither they or the SNP will want to be seen to be close to the government. They’ll probably do a few deals to allow McDonnell’s first budget to go through without too many amendments. But after that it will become increasingly difficult for Labour to get any legislation through without it being blocked or watered down. We’ll have a radical government that is unable to do anything radical.

Welcome back 1974.

I think that's more than possible, likely perhaps.

I imagine the Libdems are going to win *loads* of seats this time around. I'm guessing upwards of 50. If that happens it's unavoidable that they will hold the balance of power and side with Labour in some kind of arrangement. Not necessarily a formal coalition but an agreement to support a Labour Queens speech at least.

Then we'd be bound to have a second referendum, which I think very likely would overturn the 2016 result.

 

[bluethrunthru]

It’s pretty clear, given the latest polling that even with an election, no party will have enough of a majority to push through legislation and certainly not a way forward on Brexit. So we’ll have another hung parliament and be back to square one.

Not really - it would depend on the make up of that hung Parliament as to its views on things like Brexit

 

[Chippy_boy]

There are people on here obsessed by the left, the further left, the furthest left, the far left, the Marxist left, the radical left, and the even farer left without even understanding what the left is.

Foot and Corbyn were Social democrats, they believe in democracy, so how far left is it before democracy ends? Remember Marx also believed in democracy

For Marx socialism and democracy were bound together

This flows from the most essential building block of Marxism--that socialism must be the self-emancipation of the working class.

That goal is only possible as the act of the conscious masses of the majority class in society, and that requires the fullest expansion of democracy--whether workers achieve democracy on the basis of their own actions and organization or by relying on rights established under the existing system.

The defenders of the capitalist system need the opposite. They need to straitjacket and contain mass involvement, whether within the political system or in struggles and movements outside it. So they seek to undermine or diminish or even abolish democracy. (See Johnson)

For Marx, this conflict--between the expansion of democracy and the limitation of it--was an essential part of the class struggle.

This is because the state, isn't neutral. Under a capitalist system, it's on the side of the capitalists . Therefore the whole Brexit debacle has been from start to finish about the interests of the capitalists and not about the interests of the people.

But hey ho. Fish.

I'm sure the average Labour Brexit supporter in the industrial north completely agrees??!?! Not

 

[M18CTID]

I abstained for three reasons. The main reason was I do not think direct democracy is suitable in a country with no constitutional provision for one and secondly if I had to vote I would have liked the option for a fully Federal Europe to be on the ballot paper, thirdly as that was not on the ballot paper and I believed remain was the status quo which was untenable I would have voted leave but could not in any circumstances vote for anything associated with that disgusting **** Farage.

I went to the polling station as I do believe people should vote and wrote "get fucked" on the ballot paper

Sounds exactly like what I'm considering doing at the next GE ;)

I voted Leave after much deliberating but I didn't listen to anything Farage had to say. The Labour Leave campaign was a lot more constructive than what the main Leave players had to say, but unfortunately it got next to no publicity

 

[BobKowalski]

I abstained for three reasons. The main reason was I do not think direct democracy is suitable in a country with no constitutional provision for one and secondly if I had to vote I would have liked the option for a fully Federal Europe to be on the ballot paper, thirdly as that was not on the ballot paper and I believed remain was the status quo which was untenable I would have voted leave but could not in any circumstances vote for anything associated with that disgusting **** Farage.

I went to the polling station as I do believe people should vote and wrote "get fucked" on the ballot paper

Then you voted to leave if you wrote it near the Remain option. If near the Leave option then you voted to Remain. When a count is close ballot papers spoilt in this way can be counted if intent to vote in a particular can be demonstrated. If the count isn’t close then no one bothers.

 

[BobKowalski]

Sounds exactly like what I'm considering doing at the next GE ;)

I voted Leave after much deliberating but I didn't listen to anything Farage had to say. The Labour Leave campaign was a lot more constructive than what the main Leave players had to say, but unfortunately it got next to no publicity

No one on here did apparently. I sometimes wonder why the man bothers. Still you voted with him so I guess he’ll take that.

 

[The perfect fumble]

In a constitutional crisis where government is paralyzed, how can you possibly advocate not allowing the people to have a say because you personally won't like the result?!

Labour are not in power, they are a million miles from power. The reason we are in this mess is BECAUSE of Labour's absence in opposition for three years.

Labour could of prevented no deal on three occasions and consistently voted for no deal instead. The beauty of their position is they now plan to bring back the deal they voted against up against remain!! Unbelievable.

I hold the view that I no longer care what the result is. I just want it sorted and if the people have their say then that result is never wrong regardless of what it is.

Those opposing know what the result will be and they are essentially holding the public and the will of the public in contempt. The arrogance and elitism is just astounding.

You're not an idiot so I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse.

We are not in this mess because of Labour, in any shape or form. Labour voted against May's deal three times because it's a poor deal, it wants a custom union, single market, no politics, just trade fudge and there's every indication the EU would have gone for it (though wants is not really the correct term, the only thing Labour really wants is for this to have never happened). Of course Labour's deal would not have satisfied the hard core leavers and would have pissed of remainers, particularly in the Labour Party itself, but it never got that far, because obviously Labour would never have called the referendum in the first place, and subsequently would not have needed to negotiate any deal, but it's all a mute point because Labour was not in power in 2016 and is not in power now.

One of the few pleasures of being in opposition, not surprisingly, is opposing, because without power you cannot propose, well you can, but you've no chance of succeeding.

Now, despite the fact you think Labour is a million miles from power, you find it unbelievable that....."they now plan to bring back the deal they voted against up against remain!!"

What's so unbelievable about that? Labour is considering bringing it back because it's the only deal that has been agreed with the rest of the EU, it is leave, of a sort, and will be on the ballot paper along with remain for the second referendum, leavers can vote for it if they want, and Labour will campaign for remain.

The only other alternative would be for Labour to negotiate something or other, with no enthusiasm whatsoever, put it on the ballot with remain for a second referendum, and then find itself in the ludicrous position of campaigning against its own deal, is that more unbelievable or less?

Wake up mate, we are where we are not because of Labour but because of the Tories, it's so blindingly obvious it's painful to have to type it, again.

This Tory government has clearly fucked up and can't agree amongst itself, well it can if it culls, but even then it can't get its proposals past Parliament, so Labour's solution for this mess, a mess which is not of its making, is simple.

If the executive can't agree and the legislature can't agree, it can only be resolved by the people in a second referendum.

You might not like this solution, but there's nothing unbelievable about it.

Be truthful with yourself, we're all prone to delusion from time to time, you blame Labour because you want to blame Labour and the mental gymnastics required to do this make you look a bit silly.