From what I remember, Labour Leave should be ignored by anyone with half an understanding of the world we now live in. Banging on about how the EU was a capitalist institution that was evil, when leaving will only cause our society to be even more capitalist, and at the full mercy of the City of London. Dumbasses.
We will see I guess but the current polling suggests a very similar split. I think the Tories and labour will all end up losing seats to the Brexit party and the Lib Dem’s. Parliament should be given the opportunity to sort itself out with a Election but if we end up in the same position, parliament needs to face reality very, very quickly.
Capitalism in it's current form is extremely destructive (both socially and environmentally), but capitalism also has an uncanny knack for being able to shift and adapt and may well be able to remodel itself in the future to a less extreme model than the current 'fuck everyone except me' ideology. As for your points about austerity laying the ground work for a more american approach, I agree 100%. For me, that is what brexit is about, it's about trying to align with the US as opposed to europe, and after living in the US for 2 years when i was much younger I can state with certainty that is not something I would want.A disagreement I had with my best mate, who is avid remain.
The EU is a Capitalist club and only by leaving that club could a true Socialist government enact real Socialist policies without Capitalist restraint was the argument, one I have real sympathy with as well, but you are correct that the danger of leaving the Capitalist club is that the UK is free to be even more Capitalist. Its why I would have definitely have voted leave if we withdrew under a Labour Government but couldn't bring myself to vote leave under the current government allied with the Faragists. They desire a neo-liberal utopia and an economic system akin to that of the USA, which I believe is alien to the UK because of our traditions of the NHS and Welfare state. Austerity laid the ground work for a quick and easy move to the American economic model based on the level of spend of GDP. Ours almost mirrors there's already.
Whether Capitalism is evil or not is another argument but I certainly think it lacks compassion.
There were a couple of particularly cuntish dickheads I knew that essentially used 'lexit' as an cover for what they really wanted, 'the brown ones out'. Probably why it gets my back up so much. Tried to make out there was an argument for a left wing brexit, when pragmatic reality tore their argument to pieces. Very happy I no longer have anything to do with them.Lexit was irrelevant in 2016, not because of the media, but because it was not a main driver of anything, it was not the reason, or even one of the reasons, why the referendum was called in 2016 and it was not a motivator for the vast majority of leave voters.
There are one or two deluded posters in here who use lexit as a stick to beat "duplicitous" Corbyn, but they're not fooling anyone.
We're basically on the same page then. My issue with the lexit crowd was their belief that this could lead to some kind of socialist utopia, which is bollocks for exactly the reasons you have outlined about.
A disagreement I had with my best mate, who is avid remain.
The EU is a Capitalist club and only by leaving that club could a true Socialist government enact real Socialist policies without Capitalist restraint was the argument, one I have real sympathy with as well, but you are correct that the danger of leaving the Capitalist club is that the UK is free to be even more Capitalist. Its why I would have definitely have voted leave if we withdrew under a Labour Government but couldn't bring myself to vote leave under the current government allied with the Faragists. They desire a neo-liberal utopia and an economic system akin to that of the USA, which I believe is alien to the UK because of our traditions of the NHS and Welfare state. Austerity laid the ground work for a quick and easy move to the American economic model based on the level of spend of GDP. Ours almost mirrors there's already.
Whether Capitalism is evil or not is another argument but I certainly think it lacks compassion.
I think that's more than possible, likely perhaps.
I imagine the Libdems are going to win *loads* of seats this time around. I'm guessing upwards of 50. If that happens it's unavoidable that they will hold the balance of power and side with Labour in some kind of arrangement. Not necessarily a formal coalition but an agreement to support a Labour Queens speech at least.
Then we'd be bound to have a second referendum, which I think very likely would overturn the 2016 result.
You're not an idiot so I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse.
We are not in this mess because of Labour, in any shape or form. Labour voted against May's deal three times because it's a poor deal, it wants a custom union, single market, no politics, just trade fudge and there's every indication the EU would have gone for it (though wants is not really the correct term, the only thing Labour really wants is for this to have never happened). Of course Labour's deal would not have satisfied the hard core leavers and would have pissed of remainers, particularly in the Labour Party itself, but it never got that far, because obviously Labour would never have called the referendum in the first place, and subsequently would not have needed to negotiate any deal, but it's all a mute point because Labour was not in power in 2016 and is not in power now.
One of the few pleasures of being in opposition, not surprisingly, is opposing, because without power you cannot propose, well you can, but you've no chance of succeeding.
Now, despite the fact you think Labour is a million miles from power, you find it unbelievable that....."they now plan to bring back the deal they voted against up against remain!!"
What's so unbelievable about that? Labour is considering bringing it back because it's the only deal that has been agreed with the rest of the EU, it is leave, of a sort, and will be on the ballot paper along with remain for the second referendum, leavers can vote for it if they want, and Labour will campaign for remain.
The only other alternative would be for Labour to negotiate something or other, with no enthusiasm whatsoever, put it on the ballot with remain for a second referendum, and then find itself in the ludicrous position of campaigning against its own deal, is that more unbelievable or less?
Wake up mate, we are where we are not because of Labour but because of the Tories, it's so blindingly obvious it's painful to have to type it, again.
This Tory government has clearly fucked up and can't agree amongst itself, well it can if it culls, but even then it can't get its proposals past Parliament, so Labour's solution for this mess, a mess which is not of its making, is simple.
If the executive can't agree and the legislature can't agree, it can only be resolved by the people in a second referendum.
You might not like this solution, but there's nothing unbelievable about it.
Be truthful with yourself, we're all prone to delusion from time to time, you blame Labour because you want to blame Labour and the mental gymnastics required to do this make you look a bit silly.
And that scenario while bringing about the result I voted for in 2016 will cause severe civil unrest.I’m fairly sure the Lib Dem’s will support a Queen’s speech simply because they will have no desire to have a 2nd election. If they do pick up 50+ seats, which seems quite possible, they will have absolutely no desire to put those seats at risk by forcing another election. But the Lib Dem’s must still be traumatised by the 2015 election result. Any arrangement they enter into will be very short term and very loose. They will want to distance themselves from Labour as quickly as possible, especially once any honeymoon period that Labour might enjoy is over.
In my opinion a 2nd referendum is certain to overturn the 2016 result. Neither Labour or the Lib Dem’s will allow No Deal to be an option, it will be a straight choice between a slightly tweaked version of May’s Deal and Remain. That referendum will be boycotted by most leavers. They’re just not going to turn out in numbers to vote for May’s Deal and it is very difficult to see who would actually lead or back the leave campaign. Remain will win by a huge margin but on a very low turnout.
Agree with the view on Labour - Net less votes and less seats seems certain. The big plus on that will be the end of Corbyn. He must resign if he gets less votes and fails to win a majority.
However a quick look at the stats:
65% of Labour voters voted to remain. Labour are right to be soft at best on brexit. Of the 35% that voted leave I would bet a good number will never contemplate voting Tory. Much more likely to vote BXP. So there is a limit to those Labour voters that BoJo is chasing. If the BXP stand the brexit swing gets split, the Lib Dems do not really feature in these brexit heartlands so a bit of tactical voting and BoJo could really struggle to make a dent.
61% of Tories voted to leave. The 39% that didn't are much more likely to abandon BoJos hard brexit party than a leave equivalent labour voter. Take 40% off every safe Tory seat and none of them are safe, BoJo would lose his own seat with 40% of his voters staying away.
People bang on about the leave vote all the time. The remain vote is just as strong, if not stronger and more likely to vote tactically to remove leaver MP's. The Lib Dems will gain more tory seats than tories will gain Labour seats.