Hillsborough - The Search for Truth

[bluemanc]

Re: Justice for the 39?

Right, i'm not looking to start an argument

just wondering why scousers protest so much about justice for the 96, which we all know is coming... but justice for the 39 is swept under the carpet.

If the scouse want to be clear of blame for hillsboro thats fine, but why is the same standards not applied to Heysel when they crushed 39 italians to death through there actions

You are just repeating what someone without knowledge of what or why it happened has said,do a bit of research.
Probaly just a WUM but if not,Heysel is a very interesting subject aswell & to start you off look at past games between Liverpool & Italian clubs before Heysel & what led upto the deaths.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Re: Justice for the 39?

Right, i'm not looking to start an argument

just wondering why scousers protest so much about justice for the 96, which we all know is coming... but justice for the 39 is swept under the carpet.

If the scouse want to be clear of blame for hillsboro thats fine, but why is the same standards not applied to Heysel when they crushed 39 italians to death through there actions

14 people were convicted of involuntary manslaughter after Heysel.

What do you want - should we have nuked Liverpool?

 

[1961_vintage]

Re: Justice for the 39?

Right, i'm not looking to start an argument

just wondering why scousers protest so much about justice for the 96, which we all know is coming... but justice for the 39 is swept under the carpet.

If the scouse want to be clear of blame for hillsboro thats fine, but why is the same standards not applied to Heysel when they crushed 39 italians to death through there actions

Because a number of Liverpool fans were prosecuted for Heysel, but no one had been held accountable for Hillsborough?

14 Liverpool fans sentenced to 3 years in jail having been found guilty of manslaughter.

This is the difference between what happened in response to events in Belgium compared to those in Sheffield - ie identification of those responsible, and those same people subsequently being taken through the justice system so that they are held to account for their actions.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Re: Justice for the 39?

Right, i'm not looking to start an argument

just wondering why scousers protest so much about justice for the 96, which we all know is coming... but justice for the 39 is swept under the carpet.

If the scouse want to be clear of blame for hillsboro thats fine, but why is the same standards not applied to Heysel when they crushed 39 italians to death through there actions

Because a number of Liverpool fans were prosecuted for Heysel, but no one had been held accountable for Hillsborough?

14 Liverpool fans sentenced to 3 years in jail having been found guilty of manslaughter.

This is the difference between what happened in response to events in Belgium compared to those in Sheffield - ie identification of those responsible, and those same people subsequently being taken through the justice system so that they are held to account for their actions.

3 years for deliberately seeking to harm some Juventus fans and inadvertently killing them or other Juventus fans?!

pisstake.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Re: Justice for the 39?

Because a number of Liverpool fans were prosecuted for Heysel, but no one had been held accountable for Hillsborough?

14 Liverpool fans sentenced to 3 years in jail having been found guilty of manslaughter.

This is the difference between what happened in response to events in Belgium compared to those in Sheffield - ie identification of those responsible, and those same people subsequently being taken through the justice system so that they are held to account for their actions.

3 years for deliberately seeking to harm some Juventus fans and inadvertently killing them or other Juventus fans?!

pisstake.

No one can deny that Liverpool fans were the catalyst for what happened at Heysel but those people died because a wall in a decrepit stadium collapsed in the same way that people died at Hillsborough because a barrier in a decrepit stadium collapsed. Justice would be the directors of SWFC in 1989 getting the same sentence.

 

[1961_vintage]

Re: Justice for the 39?

Because a number of Liverpool fans were prosecuted for Heysel, but no one had been held accountable for Hillsborough?

14 Liverpool fans sentenced to 3 years in jail having been found guilty of manslaughter.

This is the difference between what happened in response to events in Belgium compared to those in Sheffield - ie identification of those responsible, and those same people subsequently being taken through the justice system so that they are held to account for their actions.

3 years for deliberately seeking to harm some Juventus fans and inadvertently killing them or other Juventus fans?!

pisstake.

Can't see anyone arguing with that - except the defending counsel of course!

 

[yerwot?]

does any one know what the crucial thing was that opened the flood gates. for 23 years the cover-up seemed water-tight, what changed?
also i heard one of the investigators mention that a counci member could be investigated for being on the board of the firm that insured the ground, and his possible intervention in the coroner inventing the 3;15 cut-off, making all deaths 'accidental'. anyone know more?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

does any one know what the crucial thing was that opened the flood gates. for 23 years the cover-up seemed water-tight, what changed?

I gathered from the press conference the other day it was the sheer level of detailed and painstaking cross-referencing that went on, which hadn't occurred before to anything like that extent, possibly because many of the documents were not available collectively at the same time, so to speak.

-- Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:17 am --

14 Liverpool fans sentenced to 3 years in jail having been found guilty of manslaughter.

This is the difference between what happened in response to events in Belgium compared to those in Sheffield - ie identification of those responsible, and those same people subsequently being taken through the justice system so that they are held to account for their actions.

3 years for deliberately seeking to harm some Juventus fans and inadvertently killing them or other Juventus fans?!

pisstake.

No one can deny that Liverpool fans were the catalyst for what happened at Heysel but those people died because a wall in a decrepit stadium collapsed in the same way that people died at Hillsborough because a barrier in a decrepit stadium collapsed. Justice would be the directors of SWFC in 1989 getting the same sentence.

I have to disagree with you on Heysel PB. It is hard to believe that only 14 Liverpool fans were culpable for that number of deaths. Blaming the wall is hardly the point. I don't wish to detract from this thread, but the Juventus fans, just as much as the Liverpool fans at Hillsborough, were innocent people attending a football match and similarly there are in all probability people at liberty today who contributed to their deaths who have never been brought to justice, and doubtless, like Hillsborough, there will be people who will know the identities of the guilty parties.

Holding that view should in no way diminish any revulsion at what occurred at Hillsborough and more so, subsequently.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

does any one know what the crucial thing was that opened the flood gates. for 23 years the cover-up seemed water-tight, what changed?

I gathered from the press conference the other day it was the sheer level of detailed and painstaking cross-referencing that went on, which hadn't occurred before to anything like that extent, possibly because many of the documents were not available collectively at the same time, so to speak.

-- Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:17 am --

3 years for deliberately seeking to harm some Juventus fans and inadvertently killing them or other Juventus fans?!

pisstake.

No one can deny that Liverpool fans were the catalyst for what happened at Heysel but those people died because a wall in a decrepit stadium collapsed in the same way that people died at Hillsborough because a barrier in a decrepit stadium collapsed. Justice would be the directors of SWFC in 1989 getting the same sentence.

I have to disagree with you on Heysel PB. It is hard to believe that only 14 Liverpool fans were culpable for that number of deaths. Blaming the wall is hardly the point. I don't wish to detract from this thread, but the Juventus fans, just as much as the Liverpool fans at Hillsborough, were innocent people attending a football match and similarly there are in all probability people at liberty today who contributed to their deaths who have never been brought to justice, and doubtless, like Hillsborough, there will be people who will know the identities of the guilty parties.

Holding that view should in no way diminish any revulsion at what occurred at Hillsborough.

I'm wary of getting off the topic but I don't disagree that there was probably more than 14 people involved. Not being a legal expert, there would presumably have to be some evidence that would stand up in court that these people were committing a crime that indirectly led to the deaths of some of those people. Therefore being an instigator of the trouble would probably be enough but just running behind someone probasbly wouldn't.

But surely the state of the wall is relevant as if it wasn't maintained properly then surely there is a possible case for criminal negligence.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

does any one know what the crucial thing was that opened the flood gates. for 23 years the cover-up seemed water-tight, what changed?

I gathered from the press conference the other day it was the sheer level of detailed and painstaking cross-referencing that went on, which hadn't occurred before to anything like that extent, possibly because many of the documents were not available collectively at the same time, so to speak.

-- Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:17 am --

No one can deny that Liverpool fans were the catalyst for what happened at Heysel but those people died because a wall in a decrepit stadium collapsed in the same way that people died at Hillsborough because a barrier in a decrepit stadium collapsed. Justice would be the directors of SWFC in 1989 getting the same sentence.

I have to disagree with you on Heysel PB. It is hard to believe that only 14 Liverpool fans were culpable for that number of deaths. Blaming the wall is hardly the point. I don't wish to detract from this thread, but the Juventus fans, just as much as the Liverpool fans at Hillsborough, were innocent people attending a football match and similarly there are in all probability people at liberty today who contributed to their deaths who have never been brought to justice, and doubtless, like Hillsborough, there will be people who will know the identities of the guilty parties.

Holding that view should in no way diminish any revulsion at what occurred at Hillsborough.

I'm wary of getting off the topic but I don't disagree that there was probably more than 14 people involved. Not being a legal expert, there would presumably have to be some evidence that would stand up in court that these people were committing a crime that indirectly led to the deaths of some of those people. Therefore being an instigator of the trouble would probably be enough but just running behind someone probasbly wouldn't.

But surely the state of the wall is relevant as if it wasn't maintained properly then surely there is a possible case for criminal negligence.

I think your last point is fair, I would only say that this should in no way diminish from the culpability of any guilty fans. They should take the wall as they find it based on their actions. Whether it would or not in law should, as you say, be left to the experts.

As you say, let's not get off topic. I sense we're not that far apart on this in any event. I'll leave it there :-)