Hillsborough - The Search for Truth

[JoeMercer'sWay]

does any one know what the crucial thing was that opened the flood gates. for 23 years the cover-up seemed water-tight, what changed?

I gathered from the press conference the other day it was the sheer level of detailed and painstaking cross-referencing that went on, which hadn't occurred before to anything like that extent, possibly because many of the documents were not available collectively at the same time, so to speak.

-- Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:17 am --

No one can deny that Liverpool fans were the catalyst for what happened at Heysel but those people died because a wall in a decrepit stadium collapsed in the same way that people died at Hillsborough because a barrier in a decrepit stadium collapsed. Justice would be the directors of SWFC in 1989 getting the same sentence.

I have to disagree with you on Heysel PB. It is hard to believe that only 14 Liverpool fans were culpable for that number of deaths. Blaming the wall is hardly the point. I don't wish to detract from this thread, but the Juventus fans, just as much as the Liverpool fans at Hillsborough, were innocent people attending a football match and similarly there are in all probability people at liberty today who contributed to their deaths who have never been brought to justice, and doubtless, like Hillsborough, there will be people who will know the identities of the guilty parties.

Holding that view should in no way diminish any revulsion at what occurred at Hillsborough.

I'm wary of getting off the topic but I don't disagree that there was probably more than 14 people involved. Not being a legal expert, there would presumably have to be some evidence that would stand up in court that these people were committing a crime that indirectly led to the deaths of some of those people. Therefore being an instigator of the trouble would probably be enough but just running behind someone probasbly wouldn't.

But surely the state of the wall is relevant as if it wasn't maintained properly then surely there is a possible case for criminal negligence.

as was the state of Hillsborough, nonetheless my point was that 3 years for that is a pitiful sentence, if the big wigs get sent down for 3 years people would hardly feel there was justice.<br /><br />-- Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:40 am --<br /><br />

14 Liverpool fans sentenced to 3 years in jail having been found guilty of manslaughter.

This is the difference between what happened in response to events in Belgium compared to those in Sheffield - ie identification of those responsible, and those same people subsequently being taken through the justice system so that they are held to account for their actions.

3 years for deliberately seeking to harm some Juventus fans and inadvertently killing them or other Juventus fans?!

pisstake.

Can't see anyone arguing with that - except the defending counsel of course!

13 years maybe.

 

[Blue Punter]

Any references to what happened in Brussells should be in a separate thread.

This thread is about Hillsborough and how innocent people who lost their nearest and dearest overcome the "Establishment" against the odds to prove their innocence.

To be fair, I never bought into the media lies, but plenty did. Then again, I'm not numb as a piss stone.

 

[M18CTID]

Any references to what happened in Brussells should be in a separate thread.

This thread is about Hillsborough and how innocent people who lost their nearest and dearest overcome the "Establishment" against the odds to prove their innocence.

To be fair, I never bought into the media lies, but plenty did. Then again, I'm not numb as a piss stone.

Out of order with that last sentence. Such was the scale of the cover-up involving organisations that we're supposed to trust that plenty of intelligent people were duped into thinking that Liverpool fans were at least partially to blame. Granted that after these latest revelations anyone still believing that to be the case could well be accused as being "numb as piss stone" but to use that saying to paraphrase everyone that was of that opinion at any point over the past 23 years is totally wrong.

 

[BrianW]

Yeah, we are supposed to be able to look up to our leaders, our democratic institutions and our public services, and we are entitled to believe that they are not lying to us - except perhaps during a war. Now, I have never had much faith in any of the above, but I (perhap naively) thought they would never stoop so low as to lie on a massive scale about a major tragedy that had a huge impact on a whole city.

We are all to a large extent at the mercy of the media for our information. I wasn't there on the day, even now I can only go off what other people have told me by one means or another. The political class use this semi-monopoly on information in the same way that Hitler and Stalin did, just a little less crudely. In short we are told what they, the establishment, want us to know. They have agendas, and they try to lead us down particular paths. For example, look at the recent campaign against the disabled. Did these people cause the economic crisis? I think not, but you might be excused for thinking that they did. Anyone who thinks he is so clever that he has never been misled by the media is kidding himself.

My point is this - never, ever trust the bastards again. Any of them. Don't just boycott the Sun, boycott all the shitstained so-called newspapers. Think for yourself.

 

[malg]

Any references to what happened in Brussells should be in a separate thread.

This thread is about Hillsborough and how innocent people who lost their nearest and dearest overcome the "Establishment" against the odds to prove their innocence.

To be fair, I never bought into the media lies, but plenty did. Then again, I'm not numb as a piss stone.

Very good point. I've just read the last couple of pages and can't believe that people are posting about Heysel. Poor, just poor.

 

[blueish swede]

Re: Justice for the 39?

Right, i'm not looking to start an argument

just wondering why scousers protest so much about justice for the 96, which we all know is coming... but justice for the 39 is swept under the carpet.

If the scouse want to be clear of blame for hillsboro thats fine, but why is the same standards not applied to Heysel when they crushed 39 italians to death through there actions

I’m sorry but I think this is just insidious. The victims of Hillsborough and their relatives had nothing to do with the death of the people at Heysel.

Liverpool as a club and as a city did respond to the investigation into the disaster and 24 people were identified, arrested and sent to trial in Belgium after an appeal to the public. Fourteen of them were found guilty and sentenced to 3 years (with half suspended). So too were the policeman in charge of security (3 months, suspended), the head of the Belgian F.A. (6 months, suspended) and the UEFA General Secretary (3 months, suspended plus a fine). Are these sentences sufficient – no, absolutely not. They are disgraceful (and it would be näive to expect anything different for any fotthcoming Hilslborough trials).

But the law took its course and justice was done. There was no cover up, no lies, no destruction or falsifiaction of evidence and the people who were accountable and could be identified were brought before the courts and tried. This is justice.

Those responsible for Hillsborough have never faced justice.

The people who have campaigned for 23 years do not deserve to have their reputations besmirched with pernicious accusations that they do not care about Heysel.
Have they done any less than you or me to seek justice for the Heysel victims? No. They are therfore no more deserving of scorn or contempt than we are, who have aslo done nothing. Why should they be held to a higher standard than us?

The people who have campaigned for 23 years for justice for the Hillsborough vicitms are the friends and family of the following:
Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10 yrs old), Philip Hammond (14) , Thomas Anthony Howard (14) , Paul Brian Murray (14), Lee Nicol (14) , Adam Edward Spearritt (14) , Peter Andrew Harrison (15) , Victoria Jane Hicks (15), Philip John Steele (15) , Kevin Tyrrell (15) , Kevin Daniel Williams (15) , Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16), Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16), Martin Kevin Traynor (16), Simon Bell (17), Carl Darren Hewitt (17), Keith McGrath (17), Stephen Francis O'Neill (17), Steven Joseph Robinson (17), Henry Charles Rogers (17), Stuart Paul William Thompson (17), Graham John Wright (17), James Gary Aspinall (18), Carl Brown (18), Paul Clark (18), Christopher Barry Devonside (18), Gary Philip Jones (18), Carl David Lewis (18), John McBrien (18), Jonathon Owens (18), Colin Mark Ashcroft (19), Paul William Carlile (19), Gary Christopher Church (19), James Philip Delaney (19), Sarah Louise Hicks (19), David William Mather (19), Colin Wafer (19), Ian David Whelan (19)
Stephen Paul Copoc (20), Ian Thomas Glover (20), Gordon Rodney Horn (20), Paul David Brady (21), Thomas Steven Fox (21), Marian Hazel McCabe (21), Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21), Peter McDonnell (21), Carl William Rimmer (21), Peter Francis Tootle (21), David John Benson (22), David William Birtle (22), Tony Bland (22), Gary Collins (22), Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23), William Roy Pemberton (23), Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23), David Leonard Thomas (23), Peter Andrew Burkett (24), Derrick George Godwin (24), Graham John Roberts (24), David Steven Brown (25), Richard Jones (25), Barry Sidney Bennett (26), Andrew Mark Brookes (26), Paul Anthony Hewitson (26), Paula Ann Smith (26), Christopher James Traynor (26), Barry Glover (27), Gary Harrison (27), Christine Anne Jones (27), Nicholas Peter Joynes (27), Francis Joseph McAllister (27), Alan McGlone (28), Joseph Clark (29), Christopher Edwards (29), James Robert Hennessy (29), Alan Johnston (29), Anthony Peter Kelly (29), Martin Kenneth Wild (29)
Peter Reuben Thompson (30), Stephen Francis Harrison (31), Eric Hankin (33), Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34), Roy Harry Hamilton (34), Patrick John Thompson (35), Michael David Kelly (38), Brian Christopher Mathews (38), David George Rimmer (38), Inger Shah (38), David Hawley (39), Thomas Howard (39)
Arthur Horrocks (41), Eric George Hughes (42), Henry Thomas Burke (47)
Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)
John Alfred Anderson (62), Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)

 

[yerwot?]

Yeah, we are supposed to be able to look up to our leaders, our democratic institutions and our public services, and we are entitled to believe that they are not lying to us - except perhaps during a war. Now, I have never had much faith in any of the above, but I (perhap naively) thought they would never stoop so low as to lie on a massive scale about a major tragedy that had a huge impact on a whole city.

We are all to a large extent at the mercy of the media for our information. I wasn't there on the day, even now I can only go off what other people have told me by one means or another. The political class use this semi-monopoly on information in the same way that Hitler and Stalin did, just a little less crudely. In short we are told what they, the establishment, want us to know. They have agendas, and they try to lead us down particular paths. For example, look at the recent campaign against the disabled. Did these people cause the economic crisis? I think not, but you might be excused for thinking that they did. Anyone who thinks he is so clever that he has never been misled by the media is kidding himself.

My point is this - never, ever trust the bastards again. Any of them. Don't just boycott the Sun, boycott all the shitstained so-called newspapers. Think for yourself.

The decline of standards in the press began with murdoch, was accelerated by murdoch and in the race to the gutter dragged the rest with him. His manipulation of the police and politicians made him the most powerful figure in the u.k. for decsdes, a capo di capo using others greed and lust for fame and power for his own megalomaniac ends. A short time ago, Jeremy Hunt was desperately trying to rush through the take-over of BskyB, and if it wasn't for the guardians exposure of the phone of a murdered child being hacked, would have succeeded. Was he sacked for being a murdoch plant, was he fuck, he was promoted. Until a political will to remove every trace of the cancer that is News corp emerges, from all parties, we can never trust the press, the police and judiciary ever again.

 

[1961_vintage]

Re: Justice for the 39?

Right, i'm not looking to start an argument

just wondering why scousers protest so much about justice for the 96, which we all know is coming... but justice for the 39 is swept under the carpet.

If the scouse want to be clear of blame for hillsboro thats fine, but why is the same standards not applied to Heysel when they crushed 39 italians to death through there actions

I’m sorry but I think this is just insidious. The victims of Hillsborough and their relatives had nothing to do with the death of the people at Heysel.

Liverpool as a club and as a city did respond to the investigation into the disaster and 24 people were identified, arrested and sent to trial in Belgium after an appeal to the public. Fourteen of them were found guilty and sentenced to 3 years (with half suspended). So too were the policeman in charge of security (3 months, suspended), the head of the Belgian F.A. (6 months, suspended) and the UEFA General Secretary (3 months, suspended plus a fine). Are these sentences sufficient – no, absolutely not. They are disgraceful (and it would be näive to expect anything different for any fotthcoming Hilslborough trials).

But the law took its course and justice was done. There was no cover up, no lies, no destruction or falsifiaction of evidence and the people who were accountable and could be identified were brought before the courts and tried. This is justice.

Those responsible for Hillsborough have never faced justice.

The people who have campaigned for 23 years do not deserve to have their reputations besmirched with pernicious accusations that they do not care about Heysel.
Have they done any less than you or me to seek justice for the Heysel victims? No. They are therfore no more deserving of scorn or contempt than we are, who have aslo done nothing. Why should they be held to a higher standard than us?

The people who have campaigned for 23 years for justice for the Hillsborough vicitms are the friends and family of the following:
Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10 yrs old), Philip Hammond (14) , Thomas Anthony Howard (14) , Paul Brian Murray (14), Lee Nicol (14) , Adam Edward Spearritt (14) , Peter Andrew Harrison (15) , Victoria Jane Hicks (15), Philip John Steele (15) , Kevin Tyrrell (15) , Kevin Daniel Williams (15) , Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16), Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16), Martin Kevin Traynor (16), Simon Bell (17), Carl Darren Hewitt (17), Keith McGrath (17), Stephen Francis O'Neill (17), Steven Joseph Robinson (17), Henry Charles Rogers (17), Stuart Paul William Thompson (17), Graham John Wright (17), James Gary Aspinall (18), Carl Brown (18), Paul Clark (18), Christopher Barry Devonside (18), Gary Philip Jones (18), Carl David Lewis (18), John McBrien (18), Jonathon Owens (18), Colin Mark Ashcroft (19), Paul William Carlile (19), Gary Christopher Church (19), James Philip Delaney (19), Sarah Louise Hicks (19), David William Mather (19), Colin Wafer (19), Ian David Whelan (19)
Stephen Paul Copoc (20), Ian Thomas Glover (20), Gordon Rodney Horn (20), Paul David Brady (21), Thomas Steven Fox (21), Marian Hazel McCabe (21), Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21), Peter McDonnell (21), Carl William Rimmer (21), Peter Francis Tootle (21), David John Benson (22), David William Birtle (22), Tony Bland (22), Gary Collins (22), Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23), William Roy Pemberton (23), Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23), David Leonard Thomas (23), Peter Andrew Burkett (24), Derrick George Godwin (24), Graham John Roberts (24), David Steven Brown (25), Richard Jones (25), Barry Sidney Bennett (26), Andrew Mark Brookes (26), Paul Anthony Hewitson (26), Paula Ann Smith (26), Christopher James Traynor (26), Barry Glover (27), Gary Harrison (27), Christine Anne Jones (27), Nicholas Peter Joynes (27), Francis Joseph McAllister (27), Alan McGlone (28), Joseph Clark (29), Christopher Edwards (29), James Robert Hennessy (29), Alan Johnston (29), Anthony Peter Kelly (29), Martin Kenneth Wild (29)
Peter Reuben Thompson (30), Stephen Francis Harrison (31), Eric Hankin (33), Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34), Roy Harry Hamilton (34), Patrick John Thompson (35), Michael David Kelly (38), Brian Christopher Mathews (38), David George Rimmer (38), Inger Shah (38), David Hawley (39), Thomas Howard (39)
Arthur Horrocks (41), Eric George Hughes (42), Henry Thomas Burke (47)
Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)
John Alfred Anderson (62), Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)

Excellent post blueish - and listing the names and ages of those killed really does send a shiver down the spine because the reality is that this could have been a list of supporters from any football club - including Manchester City.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Any references to what happened in Brussells should be in a separate thread.

This thread is about Hillsborough and how innocent people who lost their nearest and dearest overcome the "Establishment" against the odds to prove their innocence.

To be fair, I never bought into the media lies, but plenty did. Then again, I'm not numb as a piss stone.

Very good point. I've just read the last couple of pages and can't believe that people are posting about Heysel. Poor, just poor.

It is if people are somehow using it as a justification for Hillsborough. It's like saying someone who was knocked down crossing the road by a driver who ran a red light deserved it because they had points on their licence for speeding.

There is however a useful debate to be had about how a similar combination of circumstances (in many ways) had a fatal outcome and one country's establishment tackled it whereas the other country's covered it up.

 

[levets]

Any references to what happened in Brussells should be in a separate thread.

This thread is about Hillsborough and how innocent people who lost their nearest and dearest overcome the "Establishment" against the odds to prove their innocence.

To be fair, I never bought into the media lies, but plenty did. Then again, I'm not numb as a piss stone.

Out of order with that last sentence. Such was the scale of the cover-up involving organisations that we're supposed to trust that plenty of intelligent people were duped into thinking that Liverpool fans were at least partially to blame. Granted that after these latest revelations anyone still believing that to be the case could well be accused as being "numb as piss stone" but to use that saying to paraphrase everyone that was of that opinion at any point over the past 23 years is totally wrong.

I think he meant to say that any of us who travelled away in the 70's & 80's would have been sceptical of the 'official' version... those who didn't would have fell for it.